FfH2 0.20 Balance Feedback

[Yoshi2942]

Guess I have the play ability of Cthulu. Never done that before -- anyways, just got the Altar Victory (Amyr + Leaves) on Standard speed, Standard size, on turn 342, Noble difficulty. I may have to read a bit more on this altar thing - but maybe it should be relegated to only Good or Neutral Civs as well as making it a bit more difficult.. as it is - I wasn't even trying for this win, but because of how good the altar is..

 

[Lloyien]

The altars, themselves, may need to be tuned down, but I think changing the Religious Education civic might be better. Infinite priests, with the addition of the happiness bonii associated with the altars, is liable to make it too easy to spawn Great Prophets, which means that the Altar is, arguably, the easiest victory by a long shot.

 

[BCalchet]

If you're aiming for the altar, happiness is not a problem by the end stages - get a theather, and once you have the tech needed for the final altar, go 100% culture.

Poof, instant +20 happiness. (+10 for cities without theathers.)

 

[drekmonger]

Not really balance issues, just oddities:

* You can bring up the Ashen Veil, then build the Mercurian Gate in the Ashen holy city. A bit silly, imho, for the Mercurians to own the Ashen holy city. Game should either block the gate from being built in Ashen Veil cities (in particular the holy city) or scrub Ashen Veil from the city upon completion of the gate.

* Razing cities as the Infernals never increments the armageddon counter unless the city was Order, because the city will switch to Ashen Veil before you raze it. Kind of silly that a non-demon civ razing cities will increment the counter faster.

* Taking an Order city as the Infernals means that city is remains Order? Imho, it should scrub Order in exchange for Veil.

* The AI isn't smart in the way it manages Infernal cities. Placing city workers on tiles that only have food, for example.

 

[Frozen-Vomit]

Ok, as there is no cosmetic thingies thread yet I just post the couple of things I encounterd in my first game here (Cardith Lorda -going for the veil):

- Sid's tip for Phrophecy of Ragnerok claims that it will increase the counter per turn till it reaches 40 - but it doesn't. Bug or out of date tip?

- Not sure what the snake pillar thingy does but from the artwork it would be cool if it gave the same bonus as outlook towers.

- Flood Plains turning to burning sands: Not a problem till the first fire starts in the tile. You effectivly lose your best tiles (towns on the plains...) - without hope to ever use them again. Maybe allow spring to turn burning sands tiles into fiels of perdition, or block fire in tiles that are adjected to rivers.

- Could you please allow religious shrines to be build in settlements? It's not that problematic when religions are founded in settlements but it would be nice if you could still get the mana from the shrines.

- There is a cosmetic bug with displaying of extra units strenght in the lower left part of the interface. As far as I can see combat odds are calculated (and shown) correctly everywhere but there. For instance the base strengh doesn't change with heroic strenght.

Edit: Another very minor graphical thing: The link to directly start the mod tries to get its picture form the ffh2016 folder. So when you delete your old versions you miss the nice picture of hyboderm till you change the file location of its symbol.

 

[Bluenoise]

So I was play the elves with fellowship of leaves. My money was getting a bit low (100% to tech -1 per turn) but as I'd get my first prophet in a couple turns, be able to build song of autume and get that +1 gold per city boost I figure hey no problem. So I built a couple of cities.
Then I noticed that the prophets could no long found song of autume.

No that wouldn't have been so big a deal... ...if there was actually some way to get points for Bards early in the game. But there isn't actually there isn't. The first building that gives bard points is what the tavern? The only chance I could see to get it was to build the bone palace that comes with drama I think?
But since at this point I was pulling 10% research, and my money was getting progressively lower pulling even that one tech was impossible.
Basically that one change sent me from the dominating civ to game over.

Now I can understand that the holy building is caused song of autume and that may justify having a bard produce it.

But if you're going to change that could you not as well add some low tech building that gives bard GPP? It's a little unbalaced compared to all other religions. Because with the rest as soon as you found the religion you can build temples that give +2 prophet GPP, which if you haven't gotten a Great person yet will give you a prophet in just a few turns...

How about making the temples of leaves give +2 Bard points instead of +2 prophet points? That may also help the balance issue issued above that makes it too easy for someone with fellowship of leaves to get the altar victory as well.

 

[marioflag]

I have played 800 turns and only the last piece of the altar of Luonnotar is remained.It seems to me a lot easier to win for the Altar than other victories.The altar IMO needs or more pieces (more prophets) or the last piece should be more costly.
I wasn't playing with a PHI leader.

 

[miracle]

I think the problem is not on the civic, but on the victory condition AND the altars themselves and maybe nerf the altars a little ....

Agriculture is too strong even without Altar Victory...
Cities grow incredible fast at beginning. And can support many citizens/mines.
-1 prod is nothing on grassland tiles )

Oh, I like big cities very much myself, but I rare use anything except agriculture

 

[miracle]

No that wouldn't have been so big a deal... ...if there was actually some way to get points for Bards early in the game. But there isn't actually there isn't. The first building that gives bard points is what the tavern? The only chance I could see to get it was to build the bone palace that comes with drama I think?

You always can build Obelisk and set Bard citizen.

 

[Bluenoise]

You always can build Obelisk and set Bard citizen.

Ouch I think that -1 gold would have permenantly disabled me at that point. Plus one the bigges bonuses of playing as eleves is that you don't have to build oblisks. I kinda defeats the purpose...


Edit


Opps sorry I just realised that this was fixed in the patch b. now temples of leaves is +1 priest +1 artist.

Thanks Kael!!!

 

[Black Whole]

About Blight:
I think it destroys too much resources:
Before I had (only the destroyable are listed): 2 cows, 2 corn, 1 pig, 1 rice, 3 sugar
After I had: 1 cow, 0 corn, 0 pig, 0 rice, 2 sugar
Maybe you coud weaken it a little bit?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

The AI doesn't quite know what to do when posioned. I sometimes see unters with poison in neutral lands sleeping for many (100's?) of turns because they have zero healing there but don't know to go back home to heal.

 

[TheBoatman]

I got one idea on siege weapons.

They have never managed to keep pace with my conquest, because they can't get the mobility promotion. So I end up substituing them with fire mages. It could be better, if they could get mobility, but have to be deployed before bombarding and bombarding ability of fireballs be reduced while siege weapons upgraded. Otherwise they don't have that much use.

Edit: and of course hippus would get horse carried ones

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I like that, they were more useful when they could learn mobility. Kind of like trebuchets in AoE2.

On another point, the AI should not research Infernal Pact if they don't plan on switching, they just get a war on their hands.

 

[QES]

On the Doviello Warscript:

I dig that they're all "in your face" Especially if your the only civ they know - but theres a fundamental problem with them. They dont know when its prudent to build up.

As My game progressed, there were constant wars. Lots of pillaging, etc. I was playing the amurites. I'd sue for peace as often as possible, because I felt like (and was) I was lagging behind other civs. THe doviellow were consuming my resources - more than barbs do. Now - thats awesome. But they themselves didnt benefit at all from it. They got gold from constantly pillaging my lands, but they never were able to surpass me in points. Consequently some 500 turns later, theyre the bottom of the barrel - and the only reason I havn't wiped them off the face of the world, was because they had iron and copper, and I did not. So despite me being more technologically advanced, they were able to keep on par with me militarily.

Honestly - they should have wiped me out, or thought better of attacking. Because they have to be at war at ALL times - they should get some benefit for it. I mean, I hope to god they dont suffer war weariness. They dont, do they? Has that been implemented/changed? As soon as the Lanun came in the picture, I sued for peace, and the Doviello immediatley declared war on them - despite the Lanun being even more powerful than I.

I dig the warscript - but it needs tuning. Perhaps the Doviello should have heavy incentives for war - but only with strength comparrisons (likely to win/take land/etc OR they should often threaten war instead of just instigating it - include in the war script demands for tribute. Hell, id have paid tribute several times just for the opportunities to work my lands for a while.

They're death became all but inevitable, because they couldnt conquer me, and had spent all their resources, for the entire game, on war. Yes - thats cool, but unless they win, they diie. And even if they win, there are other mitigatnig circumstances that will really hurt them in the mid/late game stages.

I suggest adding to the Dov. warscript the concept of "demanding tribute" just once, and no means war. (it could function like an extended peace maybe 20 turns?) That way, the doves can demand alot, get benefits, and advance their culture and civilization to remain competetive. I also suggest adjusting the "will attack the weakest player" to "will attack the player with the least comparitive strength in armies that is equal to or less the Doviello strength - so that they're not declaring war on stronger neighbors.

And for the love - if those poor bastards suffer war weariness...they'll never get anywhere.
-Qes

EDIT: None of this is in regards to Human gameplay - merel AI competitiveness.

 

[Yoshi2942]

Ok, this isn't specific to FFH Fire.. but it is a balance issue that I wanted to post and didn't want to start a new thread.

Improvements and such.

First, I am very glad that rivers now provide a meaningful ammount of defense. As recently as.. well.. today.. rivers provide a meaningful strategic benefit, and the idea that they are given a measely 25% initially is absurd.

Forts. By default they are given 25%. Silly. Very Very Very silly. If Forests are worth 50%, and forts only 25%... then this begs the question why any, I repeat, ANY civilization throughout history would have torn down a forest to build a fort. At the very least forts should be upped to 50%.

Castles. Castles are big, expensive, impressive works. Supposedly a well built castle was almost impossible to storm by force. 100% pre-gunpowder defense seems too little to me, which is unfortunate because the default is much less.

Castles and forts do not provide marginal benefits - they provide the main source of defense for units hiding within. 25% tells me that the creators imagined forts to only provide marginal benefits.

Like I said - this is not specific to Fire... but on the other hand, the combat values in FFH are higher than in Vanilla Civ (especially with all the promotions considered) -- so changing the defensive bonuses could have a different effect in FFH than in CIV.

 

[Xanikk999]

And PLEASE, could we do one of the following:

A: Get rid of the desert defense PENALTY. Desert should not give a defense bonus but it should not make you defend worse in combat realistically.

If not that then AT LEAST, make it so DESERT HILLS get 25% defense bonus. It is absurd that an archer on a desert hill does not get a hill defense bonus.

Oh and cities built in the desert should not get a 25% defense penalty either. After all the terrain isnt even desert then. Its urban.

 

[Teg_Navanis]

I suggest throwing out some of the mechanism that help the order spread (the free acolyte/crusader you get whenever a city adopts the order), which I think was initially supposed to compensate for the order being a late religion.

In 0.20, you have more than enough reason to research it and in both games I've played, all neutral and good civs (except for the Grigori) ended up with the order as their state religion. I only needed to send one acolyte to each civ and they would spread it quickly over their whole empire. Needless to say, the Mercurians became extremely powerful in no time.

Another way to balance things would be to influence the random civ selection at the start of a game so that the alignments would be more or less evenly distributed.

 

[xanaqui42]

About Blight:
I think it destroys too much resources:
Before I had (only the destroyable are listed): 2 cows, 2 corn, 1 pig, 1 rice, 3 sugar
After I had: 1 cow, 0 corn, 0 pig, 0 rice, 2 sugar
Maybe you coud weaken it a little bit?

In fire, blight should destroy 26% of applicable bonuses on average. This is down from 76%.

 

[Black Attila]

then this begs the question why any, I repeat, ANY civilization throughout history would have torn down a forest to build a fort.

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