FfH2 0.30 Balance Issues

[vale]

Just tried out Council of Esus in a marathon speed setting game. This may be an issue with game speed scaling but once I got the slave trade going, I was able to buy 45 building/wonder hammers for 10 gold apiece. There is no non-investment penalty, and you don't have to fully invest. That seems mighty overpowered to me especially as it didn't seem like any of my fellow undercouncil people were abusing it the same way.

It was very nice though, I had real slavery to whip units and any infrastructure was put in place at a discounted rate. Any late wonder races became a joke because I could usually insta-build the second the tech became available.

Admittedly, this is a somewhat late game thing, but could a semi-focused deception beeline work? The bad thing is no real military techs directly on the path although you do pick up slavery in there.

 

[Darkheart]

I'd agree with Vale.... Slavery is absolutely broken

I got slavery passed while still only knowing 1 civ remaining (who was a vassel) and built 4 BIG wonders on that turn... by the time I'd actually met the other civs on the other continent I had 3 times the score (and power) of the nearest civ.

Sadly there is no balancing resolution with the overcouncil so again it seems the bad guys get the edge.

I think the slavery mechanic should stay as it adds great flavour but it definately needs to be toned down, as buying unlimited slaves each turn is too over balanced....even bears can buy slaves! (though I'm not sure where they get the 10 gold from!)

The same problem exists with Guild of nine mercs.... though at 120 gold its harder to exploit, but still 2 vamps and a merc can conquer a midgame AI continent.

A suggestion for the Slave trade mechanic (and I dont know how easy it would be to code) is to subject it to supply and demand, meaning that when people are buying slaves the cost to buy (and sell) goes up whereas when people are selling slaves the cost to buy (and sell) goes down, with the variance of price based on the number of civs using slavery, sacrifice the weak or CoE members. This would mean that in "evil" games slaving would be rife and outweigh gold-rushing, whereas in "good" games, it would just not be profitable or have enough supply.

As a side note and its an AI funny..... In the above game Enion immediately bought slaves and put them to work in the fields.... building forts over his farms.... and then farms over his forts!

Please, please, PLEASE sort the AI out!!!

 

[Kael]

Having a adjustable slave and merc price is an interesting idea. But for now Im just going to up the slave costs to 30 gold each and make you only able to buy one per unit.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I also think that the slave trade should require the slavery civic.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I think the technology "engineering" combines too many positve effects:

especially granting a free engineer with the quite powerful wonder "guild of Hammers", which founds the guild...so with a single tech you get better specialists, a free forge in every city and a city where your upgrades are cheaper... simply TOO much.

Though it fits the flavour to put all these things into the tech engineering, i would recommend to move either the wonder or the free engineer to a diffrent tech.

Right now I often beeline for engineering, stop researching, upgrade my axeman to champions and beat down the AI... (on monarch)

This. And it's so easy and tempting to rush, with one of its prereqs being the godly Construction techs.

At the very least, move City of a Thousand Slums elsewhere. How does it make sense for it to be unlocked by engineering?

EDIT: And the problem isn't that it provides a bunch of really good stuff. It's that, practically speaking, it provides that stuff to only the first person that gets it, encouraging a "drop everything and beeline" mentality. It's vanilla Civ4's Liberalism tech on crack. Liberalism sucked enough ass as a game addition already, and FfH has an even more extreme version of it.

 

[Roghar]

I think we just have to accept that engineers are awesome and that engineering should be upheld as a mystical path to success and enlightenment in the real world too

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I think we just have to accept that engineers are awesome and that engineering should be upheld as a mystical path to success and enlightenment in the real world too

The irony is that in normal Civ4, the game that's actually (loosely) based on the real world, the Engineering tech eats dicks for dinner and no one should self research it unless they are playing as Spain. It's something to trade for at best, otherwise.

 

[vale]

Having a adjustable slave and merc price is an interesting idea. But for now Im just going to up the slave costs to 30 gold each and make you only able to buy one per unit.

Restricting you to buy one per unit won't be enough unless you make it so that slaves can't buy slaves since one could technically buy a slave, then buy a slave with the new slave ad nauseum. The increased cost will help significantly though.

 

[Vehem]

Restricting you to buy one per unit won't be enough unless you make it so that slaves can't buy slaves since one could technically buy a slave, then buy a slave with the new slave ad nauseum. The increased cost will help significantly though.

Slaves are 15 Hammers for 30 Gold (2 gold per hammer)
Great Engineer is 500 Hammers
Looking at 1000 gold per Great Engineer equivalent. (500/15 * 30 gold)

==
Quick check using buildings (granary)...
First Turn - 120 Hammers costs 540 (4.5 gold per hammer)
Second Turn - 120 Hammers would cost 360 (3 gold per hammer)

And another using wonders (Bone Palace)
First Turn - 350 Hammers costs 6300 (18 gold per hammer)
Second Turn - 350 Hammers would cost 4200 (12 gold per hammer)
==

• Gold-rushing wonders generally costs more than gold-rushing other items - there's a tag in the XML (HurryCostModifier) that is primarily used to slow down wonder building.
• Gold rushing also incurs a 50% penalty if used on the first turn of construction (costs 50% more gold per hammer)
• Buying slaves allows you to buy hammers for use at any time, on any building/wonder but ignores all of the normal checks/penalties for construction. You pay the same rate whether you want to build an obelisk or a late-game wonder.
• From the example above, that rate is at 1/6 of the normal gold cost for a typical wonder, saving even more if constructed on the first turn
• 10 Units in a city could produce the equivalent of a Great Engineer's worth of hammers every 3-4 turns, for around 300 gold per turn.

That would give Undercouncil Civs a marked advantage when it comes to wonder construction - which doesn't really fit the flavour of the Undercouncil.

One solution would be to bar slaves from hurrying wonders (maintaining their usefulness as a way to hurry buildings - "Mini-engineers" without encroaching on the Great Engineer's domain). That's not an easy fix however as they simply use the "hurry construction" mechanic in the same way as Great Engineers at present.

The other option would be to simply remove the Hurry mechanic from slaves altogether. Allowing Slave Traders easily available workers (at either 10 or 30 gold) each is quite useful in itself. Also, the Balseraphs benefit further from it as they can obtain slaves of each race without war to go in their freak-show. The Hurry mechanic made slaves potent when they required capturing and returning safely to a city, but mass-creation of hurrying units from the safety of a city is *very* potent.

 

[xienwolf]

As long as you are talking tag modifiers, don't forget that the Engineer has a x20 Hurry modifier as well, so he can hurry a wonder FAR better than a horde of Slaves can.

Haven't delved into Building's XML yet, but can you set a modifier to counter Slave/Engineering rushes? Make hammers from a slave only count as 1 per 3 (thus each slave is 5 hammers toward a wonder), and boost the modifier on the GE to counter so he is still just as effective as before?

 

[Vehem]

Haven't delved into Building's XML yet, but can you set a modifier to counter Slave/Engineering rushes? Make hammers from a slave only count as 1 per 3 (thus each slave is 5 hammers toward a wonder), and boost the modifier on the GE to counter so he is still just as effective as before?

The modifiers only actually effect the amount of gold it costs to rush (the price of each hammer). With slaves, you've bought the hammers in advance, then choose where to spend them. I can't see any easy way to make the value of a slave change dependent on what you hurry with it, or the cost of a wonder vary with what is building it.

As long as you are talking tag modifiers, don't forget that the Engineer has a x20 Hurry modifier as well, so he can hurry a wonder FAR better than a horde of Slaves can.

I must admit I'd missed that tag - but having just checked it - the Great Engineer adds 520 toward a project, not 10,000, so it's an additive modifier, not multiplicative (which is odd because it's called "Multiplier").

 

[Ecofarm]

Admittedly, this is a somewhat late game thing, but could a semi-focused deception beeline work? The bad thing is no real military techs directly on the path although you do pick up slavery in there.

education\mystic\writing\poisons?\stirups?\deception\guilds.ftw

Protect yourself with hunters and horses until assassins join them. You can attack at that point if you like. When you get guilds, build shadows. Send in shadows, declare war (you don't get kicked from culture - this is to prevent easy escape if seen, I think), kill all mages and break any important resources. Send in the horde of horses (bounce), hunters (defense) and assassins (kill all units hurt by horses).

Best civ? Grigori (combat 5 shadows can kill fortified champs in 80%).

Enjoy


.02

EDIT: Grigori can research Esus and upgrade/build shadows without adopting religion.

 

[xienwolf]

I hadn't looked into precisely what that modifier meant yet by testing. You are right it just adds another 20 (yipee!) to the 500 already. And you cannot use Engineers for anything BUT buildings, so I can't see where the bonus would not apply... (Same with the Lightbulbing, I thought it meant you got double or triple value if you were going to be the first to get the Tech, but it just adds a flat +2 or +3, meaningless).

Really ought to be that the engineer gives a lower Hammer output, but it is multiplied for use on wonders IMO, and as stated above for Lightbulbing anything.

 

[Roghar]

I don't think making slaves unable to build wonders is the right solution, made em think straight away of slaves hauling blocks of stone to build the Pyramids

Perhaps we just need an unhappiness mechanic attached to using up slaves? Or a limit in number used per turn, perhaps equivalent to city pop?

 

[khanjackal]

The Sheiam world spell is fairly powerful. There's no way to guard against it, right?

I just lost Corlindale to it. Should heroes be immune?

 

[Mesix]

The Sheiam world spell is fairly powerful. There's no way to guard against it, right?

I just lost Corlindale to it. Should heroes be immune?

That's what happened. In a recent coop game, we got hit by that. I thought it was something from the Armegeddon counter. My friend thought it was a world spell. I guess he was right.

 

[Vehem]

That's what happened. In a recent coop game, we got hit by that. I thought it was something from the Armegeddon counter. My friend thought it was a world spell. I guess he was right.

Both of you were actually. The damage inflicted has a median-average of the Armageddon counter, but can be considerably more or less if you're unlucky/lucky (upto double the armageddon counter). Anytime that the counter is greater than 50 and the spell is cast, there is a small chance for any unit to die. Anyone weak against Fire damage will die more easily.

pUnit.doDamage(iCounter, 100, caster, iFire, false)

Kael: This is another one that depends on the unit casting for it's damage. Combat V casters will do more damage with the worldspell than others. Makes sense here to an extent - but thought I'd point it out anyway as the others were changed.

 

[Mesix]

Yeah...we had the AC up around 70 when the spell was cast. It was devastating. All of our units were sapped to 1/2 strength!

 

[kidcarson]

why is it an act of war if i hit a neutral unit with a ring of flames spell or chain lightning but if i use raging seas or world break, etc nobody in the world cares??? sounds out of whack to me.

 

[Sarisin]

I'm playing my first game as Cassiel and I have to say that Armageddon (counter 100) is especially devastating to that civ.

I had 10 Adventurer Mini-heroes and two other heroes - the Baron and the stupid Trojan Horse. Remember, there is no national hero that I know of and you cannot get 'religious' heroes with Cassiel.

Anyway, Armageddon strikes and I am left with 3 Mini-heroes (no powers, just 100xp) and that damn Horse!

It seemed a bit harsh, but I guess that is the way Armageddon is programmed to hit you and your heroes. It would seem though that for Cassiel there might be a little leeway on this. Of course, I guess he could build more Adventures using the World Spell to resent the GP count, but that really leaves the cupboard bare for the next many turns.

And, can we please take hero 'status' away from that Horse?