Fighting

[Fifty]

I used to be a boxer, aiming to become a master in the field of fighting (became pretty advanced, I must say).

Lets get one thing perfectly clear: boxing is the path to becoming a master boxer, not a master fighter.

The four cornerstones of fighting ability:
-Wrestling (takedowns, takedown defense, ground and pound)
-Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (submissions, guard, mount defense)
-Kickboxing (distanced striking)
-Muay Thai (clinch fighting)

Note the absense of boxing. While I'm sure boxing would help you beat up an average idiot on the street, it is pretty crappy in professional fighting (mma), beyond an ability some practice to work on hand speed.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

I've been in a few fights, most of which the other guy lost. I don't look like much, but I hit quite hard, I almost broke a knuckle when I hit one guy in the face. I caught him right in the cheekbone (it was a left cross, I had my football gear in my right hand, otherwise he would've gotten it from my dominant side). The area between the knuckle (between the ring and middle finger) swelled up quite a bit, and it hurt quite a bit to extend either finger. Luckily they didn't send any passes my way in that game, I would most definitely have dropped them.

Later on, when we were walking into the locker room after we got back (it was an away game), his friend tried getting a cheap shot in, only he tried when I was looking in that general direction. I saw him, he missed, and I grabbed him by the jersey and almost literally threw him into the lockers, he didn't continue to fight.

 

[Sidhe]

Lets get one thing perfectly clear: boxing is the path to becoming a master boxer, not a master fighter.

The four cornerstones of fighting ability:
-Wrestling (takedowns, takedown defense, ground and pound)
-Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (submissions, guard, mount defense)
-Kickboxing (distanced striking)
-Muay Thai (clinch fighting)

Note the absense of boxing. While I'm sure boxing would help you beat up an average idiot on the street, it is pretty crappy in professional fighting (mma), beyond an ability some practice to work on hand speed.

I didn't realise it was a science for me though Tae Kwon Do? Think I've got the right one is a cornerstone martial art because it requires little effort and simply uses the opponents force against them, that and Taijitsu (ninja martial art) You don't block punches you break arms and legs with blocks, this to me is the perfect way to disable a foe with minimal effort one block and he's out of the equation and your gone. You can see some real taijitsu in the Borne Identity.

 

[Fifty]

I didn't realise it was a science for me though Tae Kwon Do? Think I've got the right one is a cornerstone martial art because it requires little effort and simply uses the opponents force against them, that and Taijitsu (ninja martial art) You don't block punches you break arms and legs with blocks, this to me is the perfect way to disable a foe with minimal effort one block and he's out of the equation and your gone. You can see some real taijitsu in the Borne Identity.

Tae Kwon Do is one of the most over-rated and crappy styles out there. Taijitsu is unrealistic in a real fighting scenario against a real opponent, although I'm sure it looks great in a staged fight scene. Either of those styles would likely work against a random street idiot, but they are quite worthless against skilled fighters. Some MMA guys started out in tae kwon do, but I've yet to see a (good) MMA fighter who uses it as his primary style. Obviously, it is best to be well-versed in all of the four I mentioned above. However, if you have to pick just one style to be good at it should be a wrestling/grappling style and not a standup striking style.

Statistically best fighting styles (in order):

1. Wrestling (ground/grappling)
2. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (ground/grappling)
3. Kickboxing (distanced standup)
4. Submission Fighting (ground/grappling)
5. Muay Thai (clinched standup)
6. Sambo / Judo (ground/grappling)
7. Greco-Roman Wrestling (ground/grappling)
8. Submission Wrestling (ground/grappling)
9. Rings Submission Fighting (ground/grappling)
10. Ruas Vale Tudo (standup primarily)

here's a hilarious example of how terrible tae kwon do is versus wrestling:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9147956277060195083&q=MMA&pl=true

 

[Lozzy_Ozzy]

Never realy been in any serious fights, the only ones being the obligatory, albeit minor, family ones (no real hurt caused there though).

Don't see what they achieve.

 

[Sidhe]

@fifty: Well you seriously know your stuff so I'll have to concede the point. I did mean to say though that the sort of styles I would say are most effective are any and all in combination, if it works use it, in the Bourne Identity I can identify several martial arts styles and I'm by no means knowledgable, to me that style of fighting appears the most effective, I.e no style, you can counter say Karate with Karate, this isn't really fighting as such it's a sport obviously, in a real fight people don't stand a prescribed distance apart or have a judge telling them what they can and can't do, heads get caved in noses broke eyes gouged and arms broken, I've seen what the damage is first hand of real fighting, it aint pretty and it can take years to recover,some die, some people never do, even after extensive recouperation.

Any style which has predictable counters is weaker than a freeform I guess is what I would say.

Taijitsu is meant to be used against usually unskilled martial artists, but I'd imagine it can be a very effective way of winning fights in combination with other styles.

 

[Fifty]

Well you seriously know your stuff so I'll have to concede the point. I did mean to say though that the sort of styles I would say are most effective are any and all in combination, if it works use it, in the Bourne Identity I can identify several martial arts styles and I'm by no means knowledgable, to me that style of fighting appears the most effective, I.e no style, you can counter say Karate with Karate, this isn't really fighting as such it's a sport obviously, in a real fight people don't stand a prescribed distance apart or have a judge telling them what they can and can't do, heads get caved in noses broke eyes gouged and arms broken, I've seen what the damage is first hand of real fighting, it aint pretty and it can take years to recover,some die, some people never do, even after extensive recouperation.

Any style which has predictable counters is weaker than a freeform I guess is what I would say.

You're largely correct. In a streetfight, it is will and the ability to improvise that will be the deciding factor, assuming that the two combatants are fairly close in skill otherwise. Obviously, Fedor Emelianenko (the best fighter in the world), would rock anybody, good improviser or not. However, in an average barfight the ability to use what's around you is a primary skill. If we're talking about an arranged fight, in an open space, then improvisation and will power will be less of a factor.

If I were to choose exactly two "moves" (punches, kicks, holds, maneuvers, etc.) to have mastered, and to have no other skills beyond those two, I would choose a strong double-leg takedown, and the ability to apply an armbar (submission hold). Someone who could do those two things well in a fighting scenario would win 99.9% of streetfights.

On taijitsu: If it were effective, good fighters would be training it. They don't, so I doubt it is.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

People who are stupid enough to get into a streetfight should know that there are NO rules.

And I don't want to hear a bunch of BS about "the only fights I've been in were unavoidable". I find it extremely hard to believe that anybody has gotten into a fight that is literally unavoidable. Those fights are extremely rare in my experience. Just because you aren't the primary instigator doesn't make the fight "unavoidable".

Well, I have never been in a real fight, as I agree with your statement. I avoid and diffuse them instead.

My statement was based on the fact that just a few days ago, a friend of a friend, who was a nice peaceful guy, was ambushed and smashed in the cheek coming home from a pub. The guy could not have avoided the situation, and now he is stuck in a hospital with a steel plate in his face.

Perhaps I was just venting.

 

[Sidhe]

You're largely correct. In a streetfight, it is will and the ability to improvise that will be the deciding factor, assuming that the two combatants are fairly close in skill otherwise. Obviously, Fedor Emelianenko (the best fighter in the world), would rock anybody, good improviser or not. However, in an average barfight the ability to use what's around you is a primary skill. If we're talking about an arranged fight, in an open space, then improvisation and will power will be less of a factor.

If I were to choose exactly two "moves" (punches, kicks, holds, maneuvers, etc.) to have mastered, and to have no other skills beyond those two, I would choose a strong double-leg takedown, and the ability to apply an armbar (submission hold). Someone who could do those two things well in a fighting scenario would win 99.9% of streetfights.

On taijitsu: If it were effective, good fighters would be training it. They don't, so I doubt it is.

In most telivised fights I know it's usually not considered good manners to kill or maim your opponent in combat. Taijitsu has only one premise, disable an opponent and flee, nothing more nothing less. Eye gouging, punching vital areas that can severely incapacitate and kill and throws and chokes, I guess is Tai jitsu, it's not designed for ritual fighting it's designed to kill or incapacitate as quickly as humanly possible, thus I suspect this is the reason people don't learn it. Not for reasons of it being innefective, assassins would hardly train in an art that didn't work, it's bad for business. Put it in perspective I guess.

 

[CartesianFart]

Tae Kwon Do is one of the most over-rated and crappy styles out there.

here's a hilarious example of how terrible tae kwon do is versus wrestling:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9147956277060195083&q=MMA&pl=true

Man,he was thrown like a rag-doll and the dude cried like a *****.

I guess the only real way to fight(not the hollywood version with all of the choreograph moves)is to pull your weight over your opponent and get over and atop of them.The rest if you are free to move your hand,to drill them with punches or kicks.

 

[De Lorimier]

I used violence once in my adult life and I'm actually proud of it. My brother-in-law was drunk, very drunk, and he was holding my sister's arms with his hands while they were arguing about wether or not he should drive his car. A genius. My sister asked him once to let her go because he was hurting her, he didn't do it. When she asked again and he was still holding her I got angry. I got up, put my hand on his stomach and told him to let her go. He's a small guy and I'm a lot bigger than he is so he told me "Hey Big Guy, you don't scare me". I told him that maybe I did not scared him, but I could hurt him while I pushed him in the wall with one hand. That's all that happenned, I'm not a violent guy. I can't stand people who abuse their girlfriend or children, I'll always stand up against them. Sometimes violence is what's needed. It's a sad affirmation, but a true one.

 

[Fifty]

In most telivised fights I know it's usually not considered good manners to kill or maim your opponent in combat. Taijitsu has only one premise, disable an opponent and flee, nothing more nothing less. Eye gouging, punching vital areas that can severely incapacitate and kill and throws and chokes, I guess is Tai jitsu, it's not designed for ritual fighting it's designed to kill or incapacitate as quickly as humanly possible, thus I suspect this is the reason people don't learn it. Not for reasons of it being innefective, assassins would hardly train in an art that didn't work, it's bad for business. Put it in perspective I guess.

Apart from eye-gouging and groin shots, anything goes in MMA competitions. My suspicion is that these "quick kill" tactics are good for a suprise attack only (they are assassins after all) and would be relatively ineffective in an up-front fight.

I guess the only real way to fight(not the hollywood version with all of the choreograph moves)is to pull your weight over your opponent and get over and atop of them.The rest if you are free to move your hand,to drill them with punches or kicks.

Well It's a little more complicated than that, and weight is rarely if ever a deciding factor in a fight. If the guy gets on top of you, the fight is far from over. There is something called a "guard" that is a technique heavily used in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, that is focused exclusively on being on the bottom. From a guard there are a number of extremely effective submissions available.

Here's a brilliant example of someone winning a fight from the bottom (the winner, Fedor Emelianenko, is a russian MMA fighter who is definitely the best fighter in the world. The loser, Mark Coleman, is an American wrestler and top fighter). The move that ends the fight would completely incapacitate anybody if there was not a ref to step in and end the fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFIHIOwkcTw&search=Fedor Coleman

If you are too impatient to watch the whole thing just fast forward to the last 1/4 or so where the "from the bottom" submission takes place.

The position of Fedor's legs are of prime importance in that video. He is in what is called an "open guard" which is a jiu-jitsu technique, and he transitions from there to a semi-butterfly guard, and from there to an "armbar" which is the submission hold.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

I don't want to start fighting kuz i often dream about it. And whenever that happenes i, being severley introverted, will take out every drop of anger i have in me.
Those dreams usualy end in 2 ways:
1. I have a knife and stab that person till he dies and then i stab the corpse continously untill i wake up.
2. I don't have a knife and i die. But i always die with my arms around that guy's neck so he dies too, shortly after i die.

 

[sysyphus]

I used violence once in my adult life and I'm actually proud of it. My brother-in-law was drunk, very drunk, and he was holding my sister's arms with his hands while they were arguing about wether or not he should drive his car. A genius. My sister asked him once to let her go because he was hurting her, he didn't do it. When she asked again and he was still holding her I got angry. I got up, put my hand on his stomach and told him to let her go. He's a small guy and I'm a lot bigger than he is so he told me "Hey Big Guy, you don't scare me". I told him that maybe I did not scared him, but I could hurt him while I pushed him in the wall with one hand. That's all that happenned, I'm not a violent guy. I can't stand people who abuse their girlfriend or children, I'll always stand up against them. Sometimes violence is what's needed. It's a sad affirmation, but a true one.

Agreed DeLorm but physically restraining someone from being violent is not really violence in iteslf.

I use the test of "minimal force required to protect".

 

[Masquerouge]

I have never fought with anybody. Except with my brother, but that does not count

 

[De Lorimier]

Agreed DeLorm but physically restraining someone from being violent is not really violence in iteslf.

I use the test of "minimal force required to protect".

I consider it a violent act because of my state of mind at the moment, wich was very violent. I was ready to go a lot further, he was smart enough to not make me go there.

 

[The Thracian]

I'm not a fighting person. yes I do get annoyed if people say hurtful things but If you start a fight because you are wound up badly then at our school you are the one in most Trouble.

 

[Sidhe]

Apart from eye-gouging and groin shots, anything goes in MMA competitions. My suspicion is that these "quick kill" tactics are good for a suprise attack only (they are assassins after all) and would be relatively ineffective in an up-front fight.

Well it's meant to be more for if something goes wrong with the original assasination and the assassin is spotted, as I said attack incapacitate or kill and dissapear, minimum noise minimum fuss, you could say that killing someone is perhaps not part of the rules of fighting

Essentially what I've seen of Taijitsu it's moves arent blocks they are all attacks so if you go to punch me I break your punching arm by punching/grappling it at the elbow or other weak point, if you go to kick me I trip you and kill you or I break your leg and then kill you, if you grab me I put you on the floor and then kill you, if you try to attack me with a weapon I avoid it and then push your nose into your brain or poke my fingers with extreme force into your windpipe rendering a signal of alarm inefective and you dead by choking, if you see what I mean, most fighting competitions would be unlikely to allow these forms of attack. Thus I suspect that although it's pretty effective it does not constitute a martial art that would work well in competition, because the aim is to kill or incapacitate your opponent in the shortest possible time frame by pretty much any means necessary.

 

[King Flevance]

Yeah really, what if a man killed most of your familly then proceeded to boast about it to all the people you know, and then destroyed your life your wealth and left you destitute and then had you framed for child rape where you went to jail for 15 years and where subjected to the most henuious and cruel retribution from inmates.

Then when you got out you find not only was this guy married to your wife - after she divorced you for child abuse and you being scum - but he killed and burried her and your five kids, and then went on a brutal killing spree that coincided with your day of release and again puts you in the picture, and then when you catch up to him in a bar and he tells you he enjoyed watching your wife scream as he brutally tortured her to death: and shows you a series of slide projections of him torturing and mutilating your familly with a dubbed laughter track in the background and then laughs in your face: what then huh?

really most people learn to avoid these sort of situations in the first place, follow the golden rule and you shouldn't find yourself in crappy situations very often anyway.

ROFL the slide projections got me. I would hope he is up to date enough to have a digital camcorder. I can picture some "villain" going "Wacth this..., what the.. Hang on my clicker thingy that shuffles the slide is jammed."

 

[King Flevance]

Agreed.

HOWEVER, I should point out that I object to the notion that streetfights are supposed to be "man on man" or some other stupid crap notion like that. It's a streetfight. It's not about being a man, it's not about respect, it's not about rules, it's not about "real men fight 1 on 1" or other such crap notions. The idea that there is some unspoken code of streetfighting (one on one, no weapons, nobody snitches to the cops, etc.) is absolutely silly to me. I don't care if people think it's against the "code of streetfighting". I could care less if it is 20 vs 1. I could care less if it's a dude with a baseball bat vs. a guy without one. People who are stupid enough to get into a streetfight should know that there are NO rules.

And I don't want to hear a bunch of BS about "the only fights I've been in were unavoidable". I find it extremely hard to believe that anybody has gotten into a fight that is literally unavoidable. Those fights are extremely rare in my experience. Just because you aren't the primary instigator doesn't make the fight "unavoidable".

Yep to the first part. As to the second, I grew up in a "bad part of town" I guess. I have taken my share of asswhoopins by people who did not know me nor did I know. Usually these numbers were something like 6 on 1, 8 on 2, and occasionally numbers like 3-4 on 1. It is usually by a group of people I feel want to "prove" something to themselves. As to what I have no idea, maybe that they can beat up someone with the help of others.

I have been in many unavoidable fights. Like walking down the road, a car stops right by you and people get out charging you. Now, I am no fool, I tried to run no doubt. But in a situation like this you have to realise that any car pulling up to you isn't going to make yoususpitious, it happens how many times a day? You will not start running until you realize someone is running at you. As far as you know these people are dropping someone off at their house or something like that. I had about a 1 second head start on them. They would usually catch up pretty fast with a tackle, or a strike to the back of the head or your legs. At this point it was time to go down and take my asswhoopin with an uncountable amount of feet stomping on you. I never had a bone broke although most likely through luck.

However, things like this happening to you enough will make it so that you don't have a great outlook on people's views of the world. I no doubt may have escalated some of the fights I have been in. Maybe even struck someone that had no intention of fighting, possibly even beat up someone that was not trying to fight. But you should know you shouldn't get rowdy, without being prepared to get rowdy. To say that there is no fights that are inevitable is wrong in my perspective of the world. There are people out there that wish for nothing than to beat the hell out of someone they don't know, and you could quite easily be that person at any given second. It's referred to as a random act of violence and it is real.

People who get into street fights are almost universally weaklings who haven't the slightest grasp of real fighting. They are just kids who feel like they have "something to prove".

I agree that these are the people that start street fights.