Fighting

[CartesianFart]

Well It's a little more complicated than that, and weight is rarely if ever a deciding factor in a fight. If the guy gets on top of you, the fight is far from over. There is something called a "guard" that is a technique heavily used in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, that is focused exclusively on being on the bottom. From a guard there are a number of extremely effective submissions available.

Here's a brilliant example of someone winning a fight from the bottom (the winner, Fedor Emelianenko, is a russian MMA fighter who is definitely the best fighter in the world. The loser, Mark Coleman, is an American wrestler and top fighter). The move that ends the fight would completely incapacitate anybody if there was not a ref to step in and end the fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFIHIOwkcTw&search=Fedor Coleman

If you are too impatient to watch the whole thing just fast forward to the last 1/4 or so where the "from the bottom" submission takes place.

The position of Fedor's legs are of prime importance in that video. He is in what is called an "open guard" which is a jiu-jitsu technique, and he transitions from there to a semi-butterfly guard, and from there to an "armbar" which is the submission hold.

Yeah,i saw some of the Gracie's moves.I sure don't want to call insult to that family.

 

[Zelig]

Apart from eye-gouging and groin shots, anything goes in MMA competitions.

Except for headbutting, biting, hair pulling, strikes to the spine, small joint manipulation, some elbow strikes, and some strikes to the face on a downed opponent.

 

[Sidhe]

Ah that explains it, that's pretty much nearly all except the choking and throws,flips and disarming moves in Taijitsu out then It's too dirty, maims it's opponents or kills them, or incapacitates them.

 

[Leifmk]

Except for headbutting, biting, hair pulling, strikes to the spine, small joint manipulation, some elbow strikes, and some strikes to the face on a downed opponent.

Depends on the competition; there are various rules in various settings and there are venues which are FAR more "anything goes" than the UFC has ever been. And you know what? Those excessive dirty-fighting moves haven't made that much difference even in contests where they've been allowed. It's always been the bread-and-butter techniques, plus the physical attributes, that have been the most common deciding factors.

The main reason why those "too dangerous to use in competition" moves don't work all that well in practice is that, well, in order to get good at using a technique on a resisting opponent, you have to practice using it on a resisting opponent as realistically as possible. Which means using it in free sparring. A lot. And techniques that are "too dangerous to use in competition" are also "too dangerous to use in sparring".

That said, a streetfight ain't a sportfight, though sportfighting skills and attributes will make a major difference in a streetfight; from anecdotal evidence, it seems that the main way to win a streetfight is to just be plain mean and hit the other guy first, preferably when he's not looking, and then to keep wailing on him for a bit.

 

[CoolioVonHoolio]

streetfighting is not a sport i agree. it is survival. it is doing whatever the hell you can to beat the other person that you are up agaisnt and that is why i love it so much. especially when it is like 5v5. those are the best to watch.

 

[Lotus49]

Lets get one thing perfectly clear: boxing is the path to becoming a master boxer, not a master fighter.

The four cornerstones of fighting ability:
-Wrestling (takedowns, takedown defense, ground and pound)
-Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (submissions, guard, mount defense)
-Kickboxing (distanced striking)
-Muay Thai (clinch fighting)

Note the absense of boxing. While I'm sure boxing would help you beat up an average idiot on the street, it is pretty crappy in professional fighting (mma), beyond an ability some practice to work on hand speed.

No. Tell that to all the martial artists I sparred with. Their gimmics had little effect. Ironic, the man in your avatar is the one I patterned my style after. Overwhelming offense and fury. "In yo face", as you say.

From Tyson, I studied how he used his agility/poise, shifted & balanced his weight to put maximum momentum into the punch. I could make heavy bags touch the ceiling, and could drum along on the speed bag with the best of 'em. I had the size, power, speed, and reach (and fury) to pretty much overwhelm anybody (that I ever faced, anyway). The true genius of what I took from Tyson's style is more dynamic that just that, though. I really liked his (old) style, and took everything I could from it. And I trained like a maniac. I had the jab from H3ll... no way you're going to get in without taking several shots. And I could grab, hold, bite, whatever with the best of 'em. Wrestling is mostly instinct. I wouldn't wrestle you anyway. I'd be striking you with my fists/elbows at every opportunity, and trust me - it wouldn't take many. Short of that, I'll just be going for something vital, like strangling you, headbutting, eye gouging, etc. On the ground, anything goes. But, good luck getting close enough, without getting seriously hurt.

Sorry, but in the end, the only way you were going to stand a chance in hand to hand combat, is if you were built like a house. Sheer size and power, was the only time I ever had a match on my hands.

Otherwise, I was just too fast. Punches coming at you like lightning, relentlessly - and if you weren't concentrating on defending yourself (i.e., you're trying to come in and 'grab' me), it's impossible not to get tagged. And once I get one, I've got the upper hand. I don't play that grab & hold crap. I'll just use sheer strength to throw you off, and then resume clubbin' ya. And I've bled from my eyes & ears, but never as so much as experienced a 'dim' moment in the ring.

A REAL martial artist, like Bruce Lee, yeah, he could probably dismantle me (like he would have anyone else here), but the average black belt... Nah. They just don't have the power. They just don't understand the sheer impact that is coming at them.

Boxing... the way they TEACH you, yeah... I actually agree with you. A sucky fighting style. I insisted on developing a rampaging (yet quick/agile/poised) beast approach (like Tyson), which is something people just can't cope with.

Frankly, I fell I love with Tyson's style. I'll never be as good as he was, but I emulated him pretty well, in some ways. Plus I was a heck of a lot larger than he was, but still had really good speed.

Anyway, it's easy to talk about different styles, and how one is more sophistcated and superior to another. But my approach, was simply the quickest, most overwhelming/overpowering method available to produce an unconscious state of mind in the opponent. If you could actually avoid it, and get away, well fine, very rare. But getting inside it, countering it, and beating it... nah. You'd better be a world class master.

Btw, I have never seen a martial artist be able to kick a bag and impact it as hard as I could, with any reasonable punch, even a good stiff jab. Kicking is totally ineffective, as far as I'm concerned. The legs should be used for leverage, and shifting weight, pivoting, etc. Transferring power through the mid-section to the upper body.

I guess it depends on how you're built. For the average person, whatever reply you may have in store, could well be the best approach for them. But keep in mind, people refer to me as a human tank. Kinda shifts my abilities into a different light. Sort of like Andre the Giant... he didn't have to do anything fancy, just use his power, and you weren't possibly going to beat him.

I hate to say it, but in the end, it really does come down to size, weight, and power. And if you can (essentially) move like Tyson, and have speed to boot - that's tough to beat, man. So don't discount "boxing".

It does cause brain damage, though. Thus the reason I quit, years ago. I feel I've lost a few brain cells just reminiscing just now.

In my prime, would I have stood a chance in the UFC? Highly doubtful. Those guys are jacks of all trades. But, I could still play them at their game, and stand a reasonable chance. Turn the tables, and have them play me at mine - couldn't say the same. They wouldn't stand a chance at fighting me in my game.

In a UFC match, they'd obviously go to the non-boxing aspects of fighting as fast as possible, to take away that advantage of mine, but, hey - it's not like I'd make it EASY for them. I mean hey, it's not like the only thing I know how to do is throw punches out of the boxing textbook or something. You wanna grab & wrestle, roll around, and try to get me in a hold? Well, you'd better be stronger than me. Doubtful. You can try all kinds of cute stuff. Meanwhile, I'm going for the home run every chance I get. I'm not messing around. Better watch out. Don't get too fancy. It's kinda like golf. You're more effective if you stick to the basics. You can try rolling around and squeezing me, but watch out for that devestating left hook. It's fast, and it really, really wants to hurt you. The same one that puts a big DENT in a heavy bag. What are you gonna do? Some 7-part grab-twist-pull-take-down move? You ain't gonna have time. I'm moving via the method wherein the human body can most quickly assail an opponent, with lots of agility, balance, and power. And it keeps coming, and coming.

Get too close, and I'll headbutt you. I used to practice that. I'd swing the heavybag forward about 60 degrees, and as it came back, headbutt it as hard as I could. Hey, by the way, try doing neck rolls in a pushup position - with no hands to support your weight. Probably break your neck. Mine was 20 inches, back in my prime. My head is over 25 inches around. Lots of gray matter for my brain to move around (like George Foreman, thus the reason he can't really be knocked out - he was just exhausted when he fought Ali). So, I'd like to know you you think you can knock me out... A kick? I'm TELLin' ya... you're not going to have time. My jab will be in your face instantaneously if I see anything from your body so much as twitch. That'll shake your balance, and you'll think twice about flailing your legs around in the air.

In the real END, it really just comes down to sheer determination, blow after blow, who's gonne submit to the other guy's strength. And I'm the most stubborn bastard ever. Seriously. Same kind of stuff that made Marciano never lose.


Ah. Fighting. Once you turn 20, you gotta move on.

 

[Fifty]

No. Tell that to all the martial artists I sparred with. Their gimmics had little effect. Ironic, the man in your avatar is the one I patterned my style after. Overwhelming offense and fury. "In yo face", as you say.

Lets avoid the anecdotal "i've sparred with the best and beaten them all" and stick to the facts, ok?

From Tyson, I studied how he used his agility/poise, shifted & balanced his weight to put maximum momentum into the punch. I could make heavy bags touch the ceiling, and could drum along on the speed bag with the best of 'em. I had the size, power, speed, and reach (and fury) to pretty much overwhelm anybody (that I ever faced, anyway). The true genius of what I took from Tyson's style is more dynamic that just that, though. I really liked his (old) style, and took everything I could from it. And I trained like a maniac. I had the jab from H3ll... no way you're going to get in without taking several shots. And I could grab, hold, bite, whatever with the best of 'em. Wrestling is mostly instinct. I wouldn't wrestle you anyway. I'd be striking you with my fists/elbows at every opportunity, and trust me - it wouldn't take many. Short of that, I'll just be going for something vital, like strangling you, headbutting, eye gouging, etc. On the ground, anything goes. But, good luck getting close enough, without getting seriously hurt.

I agree that aggressiveness is of primary importance in a street fight, and I agree that Tyson's ferocity is awesome and extremely effective. My problem with boxing is it's effectiviness as a style in itself, not the agility or ferocity that you may develop from practicing it.

Sorry, but in the end, the only way you were going to stand a chance in hand to hand combat, is if you were built like a house. Sheer size and power, was the only time I ever had a match on my hands.

Again, simply tooting your own horn in an anecdotal and unimportant manner. I can sit here and claim all day that I'm the best fighter since Fedor, but that doesn't mean anything unless you can show me proof of your having a strong MMA record using boxing as a primary style.

Otherwise, I was just too fast. Punches coming at you like lightning, relentlessly - and if you weren't concentrating on defending yourself (i.e., you're trying to come in and 'grab' me), it's impossible not to get tagged. And once I get one, I've got the upper hand.

you've been watching way too many Rocky movies.

I don't play that grab & hold crap. I'll just use sheer strength to throw you off, and then resume clubbin' ya. And I've bled from my eyes & ears, but never as so much as experienced a 'dim' moment in the ring.

If you think that strength is of primary importance in a fight, or that a muay thai clinch is ineffective, I am convinced that you know absolutely positively nothing about fighting apart from what you saw on movies. Can you bench above 600 pounds? Are you stronger or bigger than Bob Sapp? Because both of those feats have been tested and are ineffective in MMA.

A REAL martial artist, like Bruce Lee, yeah, he could probably dismantle me (like he would have anyone else here),

Bruce Lee is the babe ruth of fighting. He was impressive in his day, but it's impossible to say whether his style would be effective against modern MMA techniques.

but the average black belt... Nah. They just don't have the power. They just don't understand the sheer impact that is coming at them.

Apart from more tiresome bragging, I should add that I agree that for the most part the type of martial arts that award belts are relatively ineffective. If you can provide evidence of your beating a Judo, Sambo, or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu blackbelt in an MMA match though, I'd be absolutely shocked.

Boxing... the way they TEACH you, yeah... I actually agree with you. A sucky fighting style. I insisted on developing a rampaging (yet quick/agile/poised) beast approach (like Tyson), which is something people just can't cope with.

I agree that most people can't cope with that. Then again, most people have no experience whatsoever in fighting or MMA. Some training is better than no training, but certain styles are inherently better than others. The "beast" has not been shown to be continuallly effective in MMA.

Frankly, I fell I love with Tyson's style. I'll never be as good as he was, but I emulated him pretty well, in some ways. Plus I was a heck of a lot larger than he was, but still had really good speed.

Tyson's style was amazing, he was one of the most talented boxers of all time.

Anyway, it's easy to talk about different styles, and how one is more sophistcated and superior to another. But my approach, was simply the quickest, most overwhelming/overpowering method available to produce an unconscious state of mind in the opponent. If you could actually avoid it, and get away, well fine, very rare. But getting inside it, countering it, and beating it... nah. You'd better be a world class master.

I'm glad you think you are so amazing. If you could provide evidence of your MMA record though, I'd appreciate it.

Btw, I have never seen a martial artist be able to kick a bag and impact it as hard as I could, with any reasonable punch, even a good stiff jab. Kicking is totally ineffective, as far as I'm concerned. The legs should be used for leverage, and shifting weight, pivoting, etc. Transferring power through the mid-section to the upper body.

Look up Mirko Filipovic, Peter Aerts, Jerome LeBanner, Ray Sefo, Chuck Liddell (I could come up with more if you're interested). If you honestly think that your jab is stronger than a kickboxing highkick, you are absolutely insane. I'm not talking about silly kung fu or tae kwon do, which I agree are inneffective. I'm talking about kickboxing.

I guess it depends on how you're built. For the average person, whatever reply you may have in store, could well be the best approach for them. But keep in mind, people refer to me as a human tank. Kinda shifts my abilities into a different light. Sort of like Andre the Giant... he didn't have to do anything fancy, just use his power, and you weren't possibly going to beat him.

Bob Sapp. 350 pounds. 6ft 5in. pure muscle. Crappy MMA fighter who has been beaten by people half his size:

Giant Silva. 385 pounds. 7ft 2 inches. Crappy MMA fighter who has been beaten by people half his size:

Zuluzinho Zuluzinho. 390 pounds, 6ft 3inches. Crappy MMA fighter who has been beaten by people half his size:

If you are bigger than those people and can provide evidence of a strong MMA record, let me know, because I can set you up with a multi-million dollar contract in Japan. If you're just tooting your horn without evidence, I don't care.

I hate to say it, but in the end, it really does come down to size, weight, and power. And if you can (essentially) move like Tyson, and have speed to boot - that's tough to beat, man. So don't discount "boxing".

You're correct if we're talking about two people without skill in a streetfight. But skill has always conquered size, in MMA fighting at least. Provide me evidence of people who, using only size, weight, and power, have risen to the top ranks of MMA fighting.

It does cause brain damage, though. Thus the reason I quit, years ago. I feel I've lost a few brain cells just reminiscing just now.

No comment.

In my prime, would I have stood a chance in the UFC? Highly doubtful. Those guys are jacks of all trades. But, I could still play them at their game, and stand a reasonable chance. Turn the tables, and have them play me at mine - couldn't say the same. They wouldn't stand a chance at fighting me in my game.

I'm sure that you would beat them in boxing (well I'm not sure but I'll just let you have that one). That's irrelevant to fighting though.

In a UFC match, they'd obviously go to the non-boxing aspects of fighting as fast as possible, to take away that advantage of mine, but, hey - it's not like I'd make it EASY for them. I mean hey, it's not like the only thing I know how to do is throw punches out of the boxing textbook or something. You wanna grab & wrestle, roll around, and try to get me in a hold? Well, you'd better be stronger than me. Doubtful.

If you think strength is of primacy in ground fighting and takedowns, I again laugh at your knowledge (or lack thereof) of fighting and MMA.

You can try all kinds of cute stuff. Meanwhile, I'm going for the home run every chance I get. I'm not messing around. Better watch out. Don't get too fancy. It's kinda like golf. You're more effective if you stick to the basics. You can try rolling around and squeezing me, but watch out for that devestating left hook. It's fast, and it really, really wants to hurt you. The same one that puts a big DENT in a heavy bag. What are you gonna do? Some 7-part grab-twist-pull-take-down move? You ain't gonna have time. I'm moving via the method wherein the human body can most quickly assail an opponent, with lots of agility, balance, and power. And it keeps coming, and coming.

I'm glad YOU think you're great, self-esteem is good to have. Excuse me if I don't believe you though until you provide evidence of a strong MMA record, because from what you've said thus far I strongly suspect you know next to nothing about fighting.

Get too close, and I'll headbutt you. I used to practice that. I'd swing the heavybag forward about 60 degrees, and as it came back, headbutt it as hard as I could. Hey, by the way, try doing neck rolls in a pushup position - with no hands to support your weight. Probably break your neck. Mine was 20 inches, back in my prime. My head is over 25 inches around. Lots of gray matter for my brain to move around (like George Foreman, thus the reason he can't really be knocked out - he was just exhausted when he fought Ali). So, I'd like to know you you think you can knock me out... A kick? I'm TELLin' ya... you're not going to have time. My jab will be in your face instantaneously if I see anything from your body so much as twitch. That'll shake your balance, and you'll think twice about flailing your legs around in the air.

More baseless self-agrandizing garbage. Provide evidence of a boxer who has beaten top MMA fighters, or provide evidence of your own MMA record against good fighters.

In the real END, it really just comes down to sheer determination, blow after blow, who's gonne submit to the other guy's strength. And I'm the most stubborn bastard ever. Seriously. Same kind of stuff that made Marciano never lose.

That's great that you can take boxing punches, but again this is largely irrelevant. Your entire post was a giant mash of bragging with very little substance.

Ah. Fighting. Once you turn 20, you gotta move on.

Randy Couture (a wrestler) was an MMA champion at age 40. Then again, pure boxers have never been good at fighting anyways, so an early retirement was probably good

 

[Lotus49]

Well, I'm taller than two of those guys, but not the 7+footer. However, I'm not even close to being as FAT as any of them. So, forget about the 400-lb level. "You can't flex fat". I did plenty of strength training, but it's more important to have lean, fast muscles (which, actually can still be as strong, perhaps even stronger), just not as... massive in body weight.

In my experience, it's the punch (or... kick, whatever) you don't see coming that does the damage. Thus, speed is more important that sheer mass. To a certain level... but once you get to the point where your'e literally a giant (like Andre for ex.) with superhuman strength, there's only so much the average-sized 'master fighter' can hope to do. His options are more limited.

I probably sounded like I was full of myself earlier, but I was just trying to convey that in my arena -boxing- (amateur) I thought I was really on to something, and was going for the top. All the reasons you mentioned, are why I chose boxing in the first place. It was something I figured I had my best chance at mastering/dominating. I worked hard, and to an extent, I proved there was some validity to it. However, what I under-estimated was was how many times I was going to have to get hit in the head, in order to gain the experience level necessary to go for a successful pro career.

I guess I watched too many Ali films in slo-mo, thinking "well, if he can do it..." But, Ali/Clay took plenty of beatings in his early-teen years. Bottom line with me was, I just wasn't willing to risk the brain damage, just to see how good I'd ultimately be on the other side after gaining the required experience. What if I didn't 'have it', then I'm screwed. Wasn't worth the risk. The only reason I ever got into it, was because I believed with an absolutely overwhleming offense, in a sport which as you point out is somewhat '2-dimensional' compared to many others, I figured I might stand a chance at avoiding the whole brain damage thing (angles of attack are limited... and what angles there are in boxing, I concentrated on building a tremendously high level of physical prowess).

No dice. Muhammad Ali, I ain't. It was impossible to reach the level I was going for, without taking some hard shots every time you got in the ring. I still watch his older fights from the 60s, and marvel at "how's he doing that". He really knew how to read an opponent. Often times he'd be starting to move out of the way, before the opponent would even begin to move his arm. Ali would move just enough, so that the guy's glove would miss by a couple of inches. But, he took his hits - look at him now. Not me. If I lose my sharp mind, what else do I have? Thus, I had to walk away. Massively tough to do. Took me years to restore my enthusiasm and passion (for anything), since I had psyched myself up to such a huge degree - and then just had to drop it.

Anyway, I've had my bid for going into the whole 'macho fighting bloodsport' route, weighed the pros and cons, and in the end, I wound up right where I started; looking down of the primitive-mindedness and lack of ability to control testosterone of the industry and all those that associate w/ it in general.

Only difference is, now I know what I'm capable of reaching, that it can be done, that it's now some 'impossible, huge deal challenge of untold magnitude'. In the end, it's over rated, and you just have to decide how stupid you're willing to be, and for the loss of how many brain cells. In my teenage years, I was a sucker like everyone else, I got sucked into the whole "prove your worth" and "be a man" pressure. My goal was to climb that mountain, conquer it, tell it to kiss my @ss, and then turn my back on it forever. In the end, I climbed pretty high. But when I got high enough the oxygen was thinning, I made the wise choice and turned back, resisting the temptation of reaching a higher summit.

I am living proof that high testosterone does not always get the better of high intelligence. Relatively speaking. Again, I'm not full of myself. Anyway, like I said, you reach a crossroads, and for me it was at 20, where you have to decide whether you want to be an idiot, like those guys in the pictures above, or whether you want to be wise, and break away from that stupid crap.

I was a naive and impressionable teen once upon a time, but I quickly outgrew this crap, man. I really do look down on it, now. Strength and physical ability are admirable, but intelligence is much more highly valued. I'm watching out for me, myself, and I... so you won't be seeing me in any rings ever again.

The only thing that I'm disappointed in myself about, is that I was ever foolish enough to get drawn in, in the first place. I guess we all have something to prove, but that's based on caring about what other people think, and placing your own self-esteem/-worth based on what others think of you. I eventually learned that's absolutely worth zero.

So, here I sit, using my brain, making good money, acting civilized, under control, thinking long-term about a prosperous non-brain-damaged retirement, keeping the big picture in mind.

It was a fun & interesting exercise, but, if you can't get the better of your hormones, and retake control of your mind/body balance, after the brain finishes re-wiring itself in the adolescent years, I question one's IQ.

And you know I'm right. Just as I know you are - about the 'well-rounded/ complete package fighter' issue. But, I can't imagine actually ever going back to the deception that what is essentially primitiveness, should deserve any acclaim of 'superiority' whatsoever.

I've been there. It ain't so great. And that realization, that exerience (which I couldn't have actually received any other way that being there) is something I really like having.

Those that can't do anything else, fight. -And waste whatever else they may have been good for. In my case, that would have been a tragic waste of potential. So, no thanks on the Japanese exhibition match.

A mind is s terrible thing to waste. If you don't think so... hey, why don't you step in the ring. Since you are such an expert on what it takes to climb to the top of the hand-to-hand combat arena. -As is every other man that is even remotely associated with it. And that's not sarcasm. I mean it - everyone IS a masterful expert. It's easy to master something that doesn't take much brainpower at all. Only other two variables are character, and physical conditioning. Anyone can do it... go get hit in the head for a living. What could be more legendary...?

 

[Low Tier Hero]

Directed at the original topic: I prefer not to fight if possible,but will if it comes to it.

On that note, if I get into a fight I do as my fencing instructor told me: fight to win(Thats why we fought with knees, elbows, rapiers and fists, not with masks, whippy swords and a ridiculous ruleset) Theres no such thing as honor in a fight. Thats a stupid fallacy thats going to get people with such notions hurt or killed.
If your in a fight, fight to win, period.

-An Idle Mind