Final Fixes Reborn

[The Flame8]

I like the Jotnar ideas Black!

 

[Calavente]

yup yup...

I had a further idea for jotnar... but a complex one. I just putting it here in case it may help generate better ideas:

jotnar has a counter... the counter shows the max unit + pop allowed to jotnar...
the counter can be 2 things:
- happy in empire.
- a special counter : +3 per pig, +2 per other cattle, +2 per city, +1per village/town, +1per grain ressource, +2 per fish, +3 per whale, +1 per other sea ressource, +1 per calendar resource, +2per stone, +2per body mana, +1 per temple, +2per wonder, +1per national wonder, +3for palace/Summer palace/winterpalace, +1 per courthouse, +1 per UB...Etc

maybe, instead of happy, it could be "happy, minus happy due to ressources, plus number of happiness ressources" so that 2gold gives 2 to counter and not 1 per city.

/regards

 

[black_imperator]

I like your approach, Black!

Food related ideas: what if the Jotnar might have positive food modifier for the hills and mountains and negative food modifier in the plains and swamps (eating rocks, not effective in agriculture),

i'm thinking about the positive ones, not the negative ones though, i don't think removing food sources will be good.

positive food modifier for the horses and sheep and all the riding techs blocked (these animals are for food, not for riding),

probably not blocking the techs, but yeah for the resource bonuses

capture all kind of units via subdue animal (people, lizardmen and what not) with a butcher animal option in the cities to encourage hunting for the food for any kind of protein? =)

not really, they aren't really human-eating giants ^^

Movement: might pass mountains, slowing down to 1?

i think that's already in ^^

Honestly? I think everything you just put out is pretty much brilliant. The food issue is obvious - it *should* take more food to feed Giants than the 'puny folk' of the other races. Also, going off of another post, giants shouldn't have cavalry, so Horses should be a food source instead of a military one.

agreed

And the anarchy period should be doubled, and the 'cost' increased.

need to see for exact turn values, doubled might be a bit much

They should also have a 'Feed' option for Slaves similar to the Calabim.

not really that kind of giants ^^

I feel that its nice.

However I have a few issues:

civ, and especially FFH needs H and S... which needs population.

so if, by design, you impose to them small cities, with small radius, (so with rarely more than 2 ressources), I'm pretty sure you'll need to give them compensations in other places, and not only in unit str.

Yeah, they'll get a few buildings giving direct Yield ( prod and food mostly), along with specialists better at prod and yields from stationing giants

the three ways of playing Jotnar that I played were always with small cities but either:
- small radius: quickly reach size 9-12, but cannot really grow above),
- or extra large radius, with 3 per pop : IMO that was the most interesting of the two : Jotnar would have sparse cities, (3rings) and could mostly have as much pop as they had ressources +1 or 2: the city size was limited that way (and I liked it better), or
- or last; you needed to build cottages (or staeding) to get the right to increase city size... which inherently limits the city size, as you'll need almost half the space as cottage/staeding... with low food input, especially if staeding are 0/0/0 tiles).
those staedings would show "small families" spread around a center "city".

9-12 is the size i aim for for most cities, yeah ( though with better prod than a normal 9-12)

but IMO your proposition of cumulating a "harder to get food" with a smaller city area.. is doubling the difficulty.

as i said, it's early thoughts, i think it can work, but i'll go back on it if it doesn't ^^

Further if you have stronger units but they are more expensive, less replacable, and you take much more time to build them.... (as you'll have much smaller cities) you get an under-interesting unit.

don't think i'll have them more expensive than normal, though of course i'll see the balance of it

I like that units cost you pop.
I like that you could get new units "by chance" ; maybe those "new units" could come with a "mutated" promotion, with a more positive than negative effect

i was thinking giving them a bit of experience, some promos and an old age ( giving them the giant seasoned promos), not sure about mutated

- I disliked the use of Thralls ... no need for that IMO.

haven't looked into the details of the units yet

- I think the proposal of have +F for cattle, even elephants, would be nice.

agreed

- I think the corrolary of Jotnar, if they need more food, they produce more H per citizen (stronger workforce) :for example, every specialist get +1H, every terrain get +1H (or maybe: citizen and GS, and artisan and priest get +1H, and every tile with 2H get a 3rd H) (or every specialist get +1 (H or culture or gold or science), and every tile with 3H get a 4th, with 3c get a fourth.

definitely for specialist, we'll see for terrain

- I like that units in city could give increase production: maybe stationned worker gives +1commerce , while stationned units give +1H(with 0 maintenance?), or the reverse.

we'll see ^^

- I really liked the Trolls mechanics.. however they were too powerful with comparison with their Giant counterpart, even with taking into account the risk to become barb: buildable, no cost, 2mvt, regenerate...etc. (IMO that was because the Giants counterpart were not powerful enough)

no decision on that front yet

- Maybe Giant Units could all get mobility II, with maybe "half terrain cost in hills". so melee units get 2 move ; can be 3 with mobility 1 ; trolls get 2 move, "half terrain cost in jungle-forest" + can get mobility I and II to 4moves.

you mean it being available to them, right, not them getting it from the start ? if so, yeah possibly, we'll see ( i don't really want to have them being too fast though)

- For the growth mecanics, it might be interesting to have the food needed to get a bigger city be increased not only by pop, but by turn number.(dunno if modable)
that way, getting your city from size 9 to size 10, early game (at turn 100) costs you 130% the cost of other civs : +30%.
However, if you do the same thing at turn 400, you'll need 160% : so building a unit, which removes you 1 pop, is more costly in term of food for the late game than early game.
maybe something like "jotnar get a base +20% food growth" + 0.1% per turn (if 400 turns game) so at 100 turns, you get +10% food needed to grow, and at turn 400, your new city would need +40% (total +60%) food than a normal civ in order to grow.

i might have mentioned it a bit quickly in the initial post, but the original system had a decrease in pop gain based on AC, i can imagine doing something similar ( a base higher food growth, that also increases the higher the AC)

However, I'd like to repeat that if you use limited ciy radius... do not push too much difficulty on growing : maybe the +30% food needed is enough (slowing the pop growth).
however, in that case I'd expect that Jotnar will REX, which is un-loreish.
and imposing a +3tile distance would not be nice as that would force them to miss on ressources yields.

no 3tile distance planned ^^

anyway, good luck and thanks for tackling this question

You're welcome

Reporting here: today I have experienced the No Dipl Text bug again. This time I worked it around this way: options-turn off fullscreen-restart-turn on fullscreen-restart. The bug was gone. I am not sure if it really helped (config management) or it was just luck.

Latest rev ?

The Rock Raven unit is able to attack and recon the same turn. If you recon, you cannot attack though. Might be a bug?

i'll check

The Traveller Telling Story event might be bugged - I have had it twice, paid 14 and no story =)

the Traveller event reveals a Unique Feature on the map based on the choice you make.

Obsidian has an Oil icon...

we do need to find a better one ^^

Edit: Are there plans to include the overall Civ Modding advances to Ashes? Graphic paging, Surround and Destroy, Realistic Culture Spread, Revolutions, more Civics, no resources visible until proper tech (no wheat without farming, no horses without husbandy, no stone without stone building... nothing), full scale hunting with bringing and butchering units, minor civs?

-Graphic paging, i think i remember reading that it wasn't that efficient, i'll look into it

-Surrond and Destroy, not really

-Realistic culture Spread don't know ( i'd prefer to see if i can reimplement an old
Dynamic culture system that appeared on the forum a few years ago, it seemed much more promising)

-Revolutions, probably, but under a slightly reworked system ( i made a post about it a few pages ago, see here : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=14142219&postcount=1277)

- more civics , errr maybe (we probably need to rework the civics, more may happen at that time i don't know)

-the resource thing, it already happens for later resource, doesn't really make sense
in my mind for the early ones ( it's not the start of the universe, they just spent a long time on ice, they can remember what a horse looks like ^^)

-maybe the butchering, not sure about more than that

- unlikely, barbs in ffh are orcs, wouldn't work well to see any kind of civ spawning from a barb city ^^

I like the Jotnar ideas Black!

Thanks ^^

yup yup...

I had a further idea for jotnar... but a complex one. I just putting it here in case it may help generate better ideas:

jotnar has a counter... the counter shows the max unit + pop allowed to jotnar...
the counter can be 2 things:
- happy in empire.
- a special counter : +3 per pig, +2 per other cattle, +2 per city, +1per village/town, +1per grain ressource, +2 per fish, +3 per whale, +1 per other sea ressource, +1 per calendar resource, +2per stone, +2per body mana, +1 per temple, +2per wonder, +1per national wonder, +3for palace/Summer palace/winterpalace, +1 per courthouse, +1 per UB...Etc

maybe, instead of happy, it could be "happy, minus happy due to ressources, plus number of happiness ressources" so that 2gold gives 2 to counter and not 1 per city.

/regards

it does seem a bit complex ^^

 

[The Flame8]

I am also experiencing the diplomacy text missing problem. If it matters I'm on the svn update with steam.

Edit: Running as admin fixed this.

I'm having trouble with icons though. The icon for example does not show up so text will just show +1 with no symbol after it...

Edit: this only seems to be a problem with the faces: angry, sick, happy, and health icon as well. Production, culture, food, etc. all show up fine.

I tried to use old civopedia files provided. It made my civopedia inaccessible and nothing showed up on my screen (flag, minimap, next turn button, top row, etc.)

Any ideas on how to fix this?

 

[TheIO]

Haven't been in a while. What's the newest stable update and where can I find it?

 

[Calavente]

black.... I agree that it was complex (I know I'm prone to that kind of issue)

however the idea was to tie even more pop and units....

 

[Ag0range]

Latest rev ?

Yes, the 226.

we do need to find a better one ^^

Both ROM AND 2 and Caveman to Cosmos have got a tasty obsidian icon.

-Graphic paging, i think i remember reading that it wasn't that efficient, i'll look into it

The recent one they use in ROM AND 2 is so smooth... not the viewports, but paging

EDIT: Today on load in my rev 226 I suffered from No_Diplomacy_Text bug again. This time restarting with fullscreen did not help. For this instance helped having launched another mod (ROM AND2) with its corresponding save and having checked the Diplo there (luck? Or a workaround?). As well first time after launching Ashes following ROM, I have seen screen with completely no GUI layers and no texts, just map with units... But next instance was correct and with Diplo. Always having properties As Admin for both BtS exe and Ashes launcher... For me As Admin, unfortunately, does not serve as a workaround against No Diplo bug.

As for minor bugs: Lair exploration - "A gargantuan spider crawls from its lair" - broken? Or is the spider actually there but invisible?

Great Prophet Tuatha dé Danann has no picture (pink square)

I managed to trade map with a neighbour without having researched Cartography yet =)

P.S. I really miss the feeling of resources piling and proper equipment options from the Master of Mana... Buuu ) As well as the clock might be useful... Hahaha I am asking for too much perhaps

P.P.S. Among the things that totally astonished me, were the event of a small elven hamlet found in my lands, that managed creating a Hamlet inside (!) a forest tile (later I found my neigbour had one more Hamlet of that type), and that I managed to liberate an Angel from some lair, was so happy that I had obtained such a powerful unit for my early time... Until a little bit later it was eaten instantly by a sand wurm just having visited some hills near sands... Such an experience! =)

 

[black_imperator]

I am also experiencing the diplomacy text missing problem. If it matters I'm on the svn update with steam.

Edit: Running as admin fixed this.

I'm having trouble with icons though. The icon for example does not show up so text will just show +1 with no symbol after it...

Edit: this only seems to be a problem with the faces: angry, sick, happy, and health icon as well. Production, culture, food, etc. all show up fine.

I tried to use old civopedia files provided. It made my civopedia inaccessible and nothing showed up on my screen (flag, minimap, next turn button, top row, etc.)

Any ideas on how to fix this?

the missing icon stuff usually indicates that the game has the wrong patch ( usually with Steam version when you didn't choose the Steam Beta)

Haven't been in a while. What's the newest stable update and where can I find it?

the base download is quite stable but way less advanced than the svn, but the svn does tend to have a few quirks ( working on squashing them though)

black.... I agree that it was complex (I know I'm prone to that kind of issue)

however the idea was to tie even more pop and units....

i'll think about it

Yes, the 226.



Both ROM AND 2 and Caveman to Cosmos have got a tasty obsidian icon.

i'll take a look

The recent one they use in ROM AND 2 is so smooth... not the viewports, but paging

i'll look into that

EDIT: Today on load in my rev 226 I suffered from No_Diplomacy_Text bug again. This time restarting with fullscreen did not help. For this instance helped having launched another mod (ROM AND2) with its corresponding save and having checked the Diplo there (luck? Or a workaround?). As well first time after launching Ashes following ROM, I have seen screen with completely no GUI layers and no texts, just map with units... But next instance was correct and with Diplo. Always having properties As Admin for both BtS exe and Ashes launcher... For me As Admin, unfortunately, does not serve as a workaround against No Diplo bug.

For the No diplo, i really need to pinpoint when it started happening, it'll help find the cause.

As for minor bugs: Lair exploration - "A gargantuan spider crawls from its lair" - broken? Or is the spider actually there but invisible?

should be invisible, yeah

Great Prophet Tuatha dé Danann has no picture (pink square)

known, need to fix it ^^

I managed to trade map with a neighbour without having researched Cartography yet =)

i think only one of the traders need to have cartography ^^

P.S. I really miss the feeling of resources piling and proper equipment options from the Master of Mana... Buuu ) As well as the clock might be useful... Hahaha I am asking for too much perhaps

not sure what you mean about the resource piling ( haven't really played Master of Mana), for the equipment, we do need to add more variety

 

[Ag0range]

not sure what you mean about the resource piling ( haven't really played Master of Mana)

It was a cool system. For every woods you have worked in your cities each turn you get wood resource counter grow, as well as for herbs, metal, mana, stones, religious points. Later you bring any unit of level 4 and beyond back home to the cultural zone and give them equipment of all kind that cost resources (600 metal, 1000 metal and 200 herbs, etc.). Equipment type as well depends on unit specialization via promotions (Bard/Champion/Berserk whatever). Then you go and lose your unit and hehe, you have lost both the unit and resources you had spent on it...

For Religious points you are able to buy miracles, from units to something else, do not remember...

 

[Nor'easter]

Oh, God, please do NOT incorporate Master of Mana economics or its other fundamental gameplay changes. There's a reason that when MoM was first released, so many players requested that Sephi make the last version of MoM's predecessor, WildMana 8.34, available, which really upset Sephi, but the fact is that MoM is really quite different in many ways that a lot of players found offputting. It certainly had and has its fans, but a lot of us ended up abandoning it and sticking with RifE instead.

The Jotnar

As for the Jotnar, they're basically the only reason that I still occasionally play Fall Further, since I thought the Jotnar in their original implementation played quite differently from all the other civs. The hard population cap of 8 meant that you had to manage your cities to produce exactly 16 food, where possible, and devote the remaining tiles to commerce and production. And the one-ring limitation meant spacing cities in a CxxC pattern, terrain permitting, of course.

I didn't find commerce or science to be much of an issue, since even though each city was small, you ended up with a lot of cities, so you were still working all those tiles. Production was a problem, so it was tough to build any wonders, but that made for interesting gameplay.

If you're going to get rid of the hard population cap, then you probably need to get rid of the one-ring limitation as well, since I don't think we really picture giants living in densely overcrowded cities. An increase food requirement would make sense, maybe 3 per population point, possibly even 4.

I would disagree with getting rid of the Thrall Militia, I found them to be an essential early-game unit. Jotnar Citizens are born in an unplanned way, and it may take time to have enough gold to upgrade them to military units. Thrall Militia may be weak, but they're cheap and easy to crank out, and when stacked and fortified can provide a decent defense against the invading early-game Barbarians. At the very least, the weakened attackers are vulnerable to counterattack by Egrass, who's a pretty strong unit for how early in the game he can be built.

You might consider allowing Thrall Militia to upgrade to the next level unit (Axeman, Archer, Scout), but no more, with perhaps some promotion making them slightly weaker than the equivalent unit, to reflect that they're human thralls to their Giant overlords, not a truly professional military. Right now the only upgrade path available to them is to become Drowns if the Jotnar adopt OO.

Just a few quick random thoughts. More later if I think of any, but meanwhile glad to see that you plan to bring the civ back.

 

[black_imperator]

It was a cool system. For every woods you have worked in your cities each turn you get wood resource counter grow, as well as for herbs, metal, mana, stones, religious points. Later you bring any unit of level 4 and beyond back home to the cultural zone and give them equipment of all kind that cost resources (600 metal, 1000 metal and 200 herbs, etc.). Equipment type as well depends on unit specialization via promotions (Bard/Champion/Berserk whatever). Then you go and lose your unit and hehe, you have lost both the unit and resources you had spent on it...

For Religious points you are able to buy miracles, from units to something else, do not remember...

Oh, God, please do NOT incorporate Master of Mana economics or its other fundamental gameplay changes. There's a reason that when MoM was first released, so many players requested that Sephi make the last version of MoM's predecessor, WildMana 8.34, available, which really upset Sephi, but the fact is that MoM is really quite different in many ways that a lot of players found offputting. It certainly had and has its fans, but a lot of us ended up abandoning it and sticking with RifE instead.

I don't really intend to go that way, there was discussion of having something similar for mana and faith in the last days of rife (by similar, i mean a storage of mana and faith "points", don't know what MoM did with it). Not sure whether it'll happen, and if it does, it'll only be for mana and faith.

The Jotnar

As for the Jotnar, they're basically the only reason that I still occasionally play Fall Further, since I thought the Jotnar in their original implementation played quite differently from all the other civs. The hard population cap of 8 meant that you had to manage your cities to produce exactly 16 food, where possible, and devote the remaining tiles to commerce and production. And the one-ring limitation meant spacing cities in a CxxC pattern, terrain permitting, of course.

I didn't find commerce or science to be much of an issue, since even though each city was small, you ended up with a lot of cities, so you were still working all those tiles. Production was a problem, so it was tough to build any wonders, but that made for interesting gameplay.

If you're going to get rid of the hard population cap, then you probably need to get rid of the one-ring limitation as well, since I don't think we really picture giants living in densely overcrowded cities. An increase food requirement would make sense, maybe 3 per population point, possibly even 4.

i'm removing the hardcap, but you won't usually get the crowded cities, because i'll be slowing growth and make Giants cost pop, which should keep everything down

I would disagree with getting rid of the Thrall Militia, I found them to be an essential early-game unit. Jotnar Citizens are born in an unplanned way, and it may take time to have enough gold to upgrade them to military units. Thrall Militia may be weak, but they're cheap and easy to crank out, and when stacked and fortified can provide a decent defense against the invading early-game Barbarians. At the very least, the weakened attackers are vulnerable to counterattack by Egrass, who's a pretty strong unit for how early in the game he can be built.

You might consider allowing Thrall Militia to upgrade to the next level unit (Axeman, Archer, Scout), but no more, with perhaps some promotion making them slightly weaker than the equivalent unit, to reflect that they're human thralls to their Giant overlords, not a truly professional military. Right now the only upgrade path available to them is to become Drowns if the Jotnar adopt OO.

Just a few quick random thoughts. More later if I think of any, but meanwhile glad to see that you plan to bring the civ back.

Haven't thought about the units in depth yet, except that i'm removing for the most part the "unplanned" factor.

 

[TheIO]

What do the LoyalCorrupt and MPL modules do?

 

[black_imperator]

MPL is an example module for modular python for people who want to make their own mods to understand how it works.

LoyalCorrupt changes the Good/Evil Texts into Loyal/Corrupt ( some people requested it, thinking it described the actual alignment better)

 

[Xanthippus]

Hey there, just downloaded this to give it a try and started a game as Scions... not sure if this is a bug or if I'm missing something, but I can't add Awakened to my existing cities. The button is there, but it's faded out and I can't click it. I can move them out of cities to found new ones though.

Also, keep getting the Barbarians at the Gates event really often... like every 20-30 turns or so (on Marathon). None of the options seem to have any sort of effect either.

 

[black_imperator]

that sounds like some kind of python error, have you tried a "Play now" game first ? ( it's important when switching from one mod to another to start by a Play now game, as it resets all the hidden options that can cause issues like this)

 

[TheIO]

I'm having a slight problem with some emergent leaders (in this case Athel Revus and Elijah Arnauld) in that I can't actually do any diplomacy with them. I can click on their names on the side but there's no options on the diplomacy menu.

I'm using the latest version of the SVN.

 

[Xanthippus]

that sounds like some kind of python error, have you tried a "Play now" game first ? ( it's important when switching from one mod to another to start by a Play now game, as it resets all the hidden options that can cause issues like this)

Yep, I went Play Now and chose World of Erebus. I even tried starting over, making sure I went Play Now, to no avail. I followed the instructions to get the latest SVN, and I have gone into Steam to revert it to the original release patch.

 

[black_imperator]

yeah it's a recurring bug we've got recently. I have some trouble tracking it down as it doesn't always happen(never got it myself for example). ideally, i'll need a few people trying older revisions to try and pinpoint the initial one that caused the issue

 

[Xanthippus]

Any suggestions to fix the issue I'm having?

 

[black_imperator]

in your civ4_config file ( which you can find in the Beyond the Sword folder), try changing hide python exceptions from 1 to 0, that'll show us if there's an actual python issue hidden behind those problems.