pre-release info First Look: Confucius - Discussion

[pokiehl]

It's odd, because we see things like buildings getting patina in the modern era, as well as suggestions that wonders like Petra will be losing their color over time.

I haven’t seen either of those things and I don’t think I would like those effects.

Where did you see these? We’ve seen an antiquity building in later ages already (granary) and it looks exactly the same. We’ve also not yet seen any wonders changing. Petra just has a new look overall I think.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Kalmar Union confirmed?

Once again, I beg of you (fondly) to not respond to my replies here with "X confirmed?" I'm neither tasked with releasing information nor am I interested in leaking things.

 

[moysturfurmer]

An ill-conceived joke, I sheepishly assure you

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

No worries. My thought process is like: "I can't even like this reply for fear that it's going to Start Something. Also, should I be expecting a call from the legal department?" I totally get the spirit, though, and were I just a fan (as opposed to a fan AND a dev) I'd do something similar!

 

[notNamed]

I guess wearing a loincloth would've been more historically accurate for Ashoka?

Not really a loincloth as he was the top of the local hierarchy. More like a dhoti, which existed back then, but I can't tell if they've had any important changes since then.
See this video for an example of how that clothing works:

But yeah, going off Andrew's later comments. This is precisely the sort of clothes animators and tech artists prefer to avoid.

 

[RedCourtJester]

I haven’t seen either of those things and I don’t think I would like those effects.

Where did you see these? We’ve seen an antiquity building in later ages already (granary) and it looks exactly the same. We’ve also not yet seen any wonders changing. Petra just has a new look overall I think.

Honestly the Petra speculation is just speculation.

I could have sworn in the earlier image/video reveals we saw an exploration -> modern transition where the building stayed the same but its appearance changed, particularly the bronze roofs turning green.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

@Andrew Johnson [FXS]
I dont know if this a question that you can answer: but to what extent do you make changes based on the feedback from the community (here and elsewhere) about historical veracity? I guess one extreme on this scale would be "it's part of the extended Q&A" and the other "only when it's a major error that makes a lot of people very upset", where in-between do you sit?

Here's something like the triage:
- Is it truly an error, or a disagreement in interpretation?
- How tough is it to fix? (Changing a word in a leader line is huge and involves VO, art, nearly everyone; changing an independent power name is less huge).
- How swamped are we with work?
- How bad is it?
- How bad will the fan response be (not the same as the above)?

 

[moysturfurmer]

Honestly the Petra speculation is just speculation.

I could have sworn in the earlier image/video reveals we saw an exploration -> modern transition where the building stayed the same but its appearance changed, particularly the bronze roofs turning green.

I believe some accent colors on wonders change depending on leader, because there’s shots of the Colosseum where the sun shades are Augustus’s purple, and other shots where it’s Hatshepsut’s brownish yellow.

 

[ChowMeinDelivery]

I don't want to complain too much about Confucius' appearance, but wasn't he from a Northern Chinese state, Shandong? His skin tone in the game looks more Southern Chinese or even Southeast Asian. Even darker than my skin-tone and I'm of Southern Chinese descent.

Firaxis hasn't always been accurate with skintones (see Tamar, and Hammurabi in Civ6), but I won't comment further on this.

This is an understatement. It isn't simply his skin tone that is problematic, rather, the main issue is that he doesn't even look Chinese. His nose is so wide that it is entirely outside the natural range of the Chinese population (including the Austroasiatic admixed Min and Yue populations of Fujian and Guangdong/Guangxi).

Below are the average male face of the Northern (Yellow River), Central (Yangtze), and Southern (Pearl) Chinese populations:

And of course, here is Confucius:

As far as I'm aware, the only populations on the planet that have noses as wide as that of Confucius' character model are the Khoi/San/Bushmen of South Africa and perhaps the desert-dwelling Australian Aborigines. They've unwittingly race-swapped Confucius.

 

[ChowMeinDelivery]

(And, of course, the skin color of the average Chinese is not necessarily region-coded; plenty of Northerners have dark skin, and plenty of Southerners have lighter skin as well. An IRL friend of mine, who is half-Manchu, half-Northern Han, has the darkest skin tone among the Chinese people I have ever known.)

Yellow River Han populations do not have skin tones this dark. The only time you find skin this dark in the Central Plains is in non-Han populations, or Han people with recent non-Han ancestry. I am of Shandongese descent (from Zibo) and even the farmer who spends his whole day toiling in the fields does not have skin as dark as this character model for Confucius.

The most famous, most commonly-reproduced Kongzi portrait, or the Kongzi yanju xiang (Ming dynasty), painted him with relatively dark skin. Compare the skin tone of Kongzi with the background color of the aged xuan paper.
View attachment 704644

Below is another well-known portrait of Kongzi and a portrait of his favorite student, Yan Hui, done by the same artist. This set of half-length portraits was initially hung in the Imperial Palace during Qing times, so the portrayal here is very much an officially agreed version.
Note the very obvious, if not dramatic, difference in skin tone between Kongzi (right) and Yan Hui (left).

View attachment 704643

I would say the FXS art team actually did a tremendously good job of faithfully modeling Kongzi based on the traditional art depictions. It is like Kongzi, who we only knew from the portraits before, now comes to life. His postures and movements are based on traditional salutes as well. (My only nickpick is that Kongzi should be taller, since he was a well-known tall and chunky person, almost like the Dwayne Johnson of his time.)

This isn't dark skin, it's ruddy. Note that the hue is red rather than brown. The character model has negligible red tone. The reason they would have depicted him as ruddy is because it is associated with martial prowess (Confucius was known for being skilled at archery, horseback riding, and charioteering).

 

[ChowMeinDelivery]

I had it pointed out to me recently (and from what relatively-limited knowledge I have, it seems accurate) that hunter-gatherer societies tended to have darker skin colors than agricultural societies because their diets contained more vitamin D, meaning production of it (which requires light, and happens more quickly with lighter skin) was less important. I imagine that a society that more recently transitioned from hunter-gatherer to agricultural might have darker skin color than their southern neighbors who lived further south.

Dietary vitamin D is negligible in most circumstances and essentially only occurs in decent concentrations in fish. Outside of fish, the only naturally occurring sources are eggs (1 egg yolk ~5% DV) and mushrooms (1 cup ~17%, only has D2, D2 isn't even really vitamin D, as it has less than half the bioavailability)
Almost all vitamin D is obtained via synthesis of 7-Dehydrocholesterol through the skin via UV exposure.

Dark skin (i.e. greater melanin production) is an adaptation to high sun exposure. If you look at the bare skin (under their hair) of genus pan (chimpanzees and bonobos, the genus nearest to homo), their skin is quite light. In other words, dark skin is the more specialized trait between light and dark skin. Increased melanin production is extremely detrimental in cold areas as it will result in vitamin D deficiencies.

 

[ChowMeinDelivery]

关系Guanxi, I know as kind of as network. I'm just HSK3 in chinese...
The book of Confucius I also know as the Analects.

The reason why Guanxi has negative connotations is that it is associated with nepotism.

 

[ChowMeinDelivery]

Very interesting! Now I understand why they chose that skintone for him! My skin can get pretty tanned with enough sunlight, but I like to stay indoors most of the time....

I burn within half an hour of sun exposure and tan minimally.

They mention the Ming in the first look trailers. And leaks suggest the third Chinese Civ is the Qing.

I don't really see how they could pick anyone other than Qing for the last civ. All the other options are too politically sensitive.

 

[pokiehl]

Moderator Action: Please remain on topic. Thanks.

 

[Henri Christophe]

The reason why Guanxi has negative connotations is that it is associated with nepotism.

Thanks to tell it to me, I never will guess it