[R&F] First Look: Robert the Bruce | Scotland

[PhilBowles]

I agree. A later era Scottish leader would have fit the Scottish Civ abilities far better. For Robert the Bruce they should have added more military or loyalty bonuses IMO.

I do still find golf courses for Scotland ridiculously funny though. It undermines Robert the Bruce's dignity in the same way that someone pulling down Barbarossa's armored pants during your first meeting with him might well undermine his gruff imperious presence.

The animation does more than enough to undermine Robert's dignity - he's even more preposterous than Philip II's swashbuckling.

 

[Morningcalm]

The animation does more than enough to undermine Robert's dignity - he's even more preposterous than Philip II's swashbuckling.

Fair enough. But the golf courses only add to how bad it is. All this is worse in light of the IRL Robert's more grim purpose.

 

[PhilBowles]

Fair enough. But the golf courses only add to how bad it is. All this is worse in light of the IRL Robert's more grim purpose.

Portraying the real Robert wouldn't do him too many favours - he's regarded as a national hero in Scotland mostly for winning one battle, but the real character spent the majority of his life at war with other Scottish claimants to the throne and occasionally murdering them, and latterly invading Ireland.

 

[Greywulf]

Well, this can only mean one thing...

 

[Morningcalm]

Portraying the real Robert wouldn't do him too many favours - he's regarded as a national hero in Scotland mostly for winning one battle, but the real character spent the majority of his life at war with other Scottish claimants to the throne and occasionally murdering them, and latterly invading Ireland.

The real Robert is fine. Many great world leaders weren't above the occasional murder. It's partly why Alex is admired no? Murder on the battlefield is ok, but I guess a drunken rage killing not so much. Robert's military combat murdering is fine. He had perseverance and patience in spades, and tactical brilliance.

 

[agonistes]

Golf course seems cheesy on first impression (my first thought was it was picked by the graphics team more than anything!).

But in second thought - yes it's more 'modern' era, but comparatively what other UI is nearly as ubiquitous?

+1 amenities seems very strong - I wonder if it's limited to one per city?

I wonder if the golf course has to be worked to get the amenity. Otherwise this is arguably the strongest ui in the game, particularly if its granting +2 gpp per turn per city per affected district.

It does impact loyalty. Happiness impacts loyalty, ergo golf courses do too.

 

[Manifold]

We aren't getting the Celts at all. It is possible that the Gauls might come as a separate Civ. But I'm under the impression this is the Celtic Nation Civ we're getting for this game.

I guess Scotland and Robert the Bruce leave plenty of room for a real Celtic=Gaul Civ based on the La-Tene culture with "Vae victis!" Brennus, Ferrum Noricum, Forest Devils, Druid circle...

Scotland now has not a Pictish warrior as UU. UA and UI are modern and have no relation to any Celtic/Gaul Civ.

By the way I like the idea to give a Civ some benefit for being happy. Therefore Scotland is an interesting choice
I am also very curious about the music. To hear bagpipes for hours from the Stone Age to modern times will be the real test of time

 

[ferretbacon]

I guess Scotland and Robert the Bruce leave plenty of room for a real Celtic=Gaul Civ based on the La-Tene culture with "Vae victis!" Brennus, Ferrum Noricum, Forest Devils, Druid circle...

Scotland now has not a Pictish warrior as UU. UA and UI are modern and have no relation to any Celtic/Gaul Civ.

By the way I like the idea to give a Civ some benefit for being happy. Therefore Scotland is an interesting choice
I am also very curious about the music. To hear bagpipes for hours from the Stone Age to modern times will be the real test of time

I doubt the bagpipes are present or in full force in the Ancient era theme.

 

[agonistes]

Calling all CivFanatics of Scottish heritage!

I hope you can enlighten us what's the connection between Robert and wooden stool.

Eat enough haggis and you'll find out.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I guess Scotland and Robert the Bruce leave plenty of room for a real Celtic=Gaul Civ based on the La-Tene culture with "Vae victis!" Brennus, Ferrum Noricum, Forest Devils, Druid circle...

Scotland now has not a Pictish warrior as UU. UA and UI are modern and have no relation to any Celtic/Gaul Civ.

By the way I like the idea to give a Civ some benefit for being happy. Therefore Scotland is an interesting choice
I am also very curious about the music. To hear bagpipes for hours from the Stone Age to modern times will be the real test of time

I'm not necessarily expecting it all considering Scotland is technically considered a Celtic nation today, and I think they might would want to look elsewhere other than a separate Gaul Civ, even if that would portray a more classical era civ. That might fuel the fire for the people that say the developers are now "Celticizing" Europe instead of "Balkanizing" it.
Of course I was a Georgia, and a separated Scotland from the rest of the Celts, skeptic and we know how that turned out.

 

[tedhebert]

Wow... day at work went late, come here and we're at PAGE 22 ??? anyways, I haven't taken the time to read this thread, but this is IMHO one of the lamest post-vanilla civ playwise... I don't see anything in there that will make me want to play this civ ;-(

 

[Stomper66]

I worked up the courage to watch the video for a second time. Might be alright if they change the colour before release like they did for Indonesia. And hopefully MOAR units mod will come out for Scotland to re skin the highlander and provide a less British looking unit. Also could add a Pictish warrior or something. I still really dislike the golf course never going to be won over by that one. So goofy and makes the game more cartoony than it already is. The leader choice and animation look good at least. I don't mind him kicking the chair as he looks like he's going to war and other leaders are at their most animated when this happens. It's a bit of a disproportionate body shape though even for Civ6. Does Robert the Bruce skip leg day or something? It's almost as bad as Genghis Khans tiny arms.

 

[agonistes]

It’s only for liberating cities of allies or friends. So you just need any ally or friend who has lost a city.

Do you need to be a friend/ally when the city is lost though? Or can you ally someone who has previously lost a city and get the cb?

 

[K4wa]

For whatever reason i assumed that the UU of a civ was supposed to be roughly of the same time period as it's leader's.

 

[CivLuvah]

I just read all the pages of this thread so far and objectively we could agree that the Scottish civ had garnered polarized mixed reviews to the point that this is the first time so far that I've seen a new civ discussion thread derail into blaming and fingerpointing.

 

[Stomper66]

Who's blaming and finger pointing? I've not seen any nasty posts just discussion. Georgia was way more heated and that was probably a better civ design than Scotland looking back.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Well, I've waded through 22 pages of people ranting about how good/bad/ridiculous Scotland the Civ is when we have only hints and indicators (though a lot of them) as to how the game will actually play with all the changes that R&F is making.

I think most of it is more than a Tad Premature, so I will say nothing about the Civ version of Scotland until I see how it plays in R&F.
- And, since I play on a Mac, I probably won't get a chance to see R&F until May Day or so...

Meanwhile, a few comments on the 'historical' portrayal of Scotland (from now on, 'historical' in a Civ context should always be set off in quotes, when we don't follow Firaxis' lead and ignore it entirely)

First, the Civ version's UU and UI are both well after The Union in 1707, when Scotland became part of 'Great' Britain. In fact, the Highlander graphic is that of the Napoleonic Wars: black feather 'bonnet' and 'government tartan'. On the other hand, characterizing the Highlander as a Recon unit is a very good move: the Pre-Union Scots Highlanders were notorious for being very fast moving, and being in the Recon line is the only way (at the moment) to give the unit Mobility Promotions. Like many in this thread, I too never built a Ranger until a game a couple of weeks ago, when I had a couple of scouts left over and promoted them. I am now a Believer In Rangers: they can practically one-shot any unit from previous Eras, scamper away from most units in their own Era, and are effectively immune to any remaining Barbarians unless you are really, really careless. I am already drooling at the thought of having a half-dozen or so Improved Rangers running loose...

Several people have recommended the book How the Scots Invented the Modern World in this thread, and I agree: I worked 15 years in a bookstore, and it was one of the dozen or so books I recommended most often, because and despite the 'over the top' title.

Making a 'prehistoric' or pre-medieval Scotland civ, as several Threaders have been hoping for apparently, is not so easy. Scotland and the Scots are only identifiable in their 'Scottishness' from about the 7th - 8th century on. Before that, you had semi-Celtic (Picts) Pre-Celtic (Caledonii and Dal Riada) or almost purely Irish (Scotti) cultures/states in Scotland, and some of the 'Scottish Uniques' mentioned are not Scottish: the Brochs and other dry-stone structures predate even the Picts, let alone any Scots.

Part of the problem with Scotland is that there are such a great number of Uniques that could be used. Just in Units, the Highlander could be a Improved Swordsman (Gallowglass), Improved Ranger, Improved Infantry (WWI's 51st Highland Division, the "Ladies From Hell" as their German opponents called them), and in addition there are the Border Reivers, Frame Guns, Covenanter Pike and Shot and Schiltrons (which, to clarify, were not 'just another pike unit' - they used a Half-Pike which still gave them a reach advantage over Knights' lances, but was much more maneuverable and mobile - the English knights at Bannockburn were Charged by the Schiltrons, not charging them). And then there are the 'landscape' Improvements/Buildings: Distilery, Pele Tower, Clan Castle, Residence (think what Balmoral would look like on a Cv VI tile!) - I admit, a Golf Course would have been well down on my list...

Everybody associates bagpipes with Scotland, even though everybody who raised sheep on a hillside had them, from ancient Thracians to medieval/renaissance Spanish/Basques, so we are stuck with them, I suppose. But if you want to know just how much variation there is in Scottish music, listen to some Silly Wizard, Tannahill Weavers, Steeleye Span, or Skyedance albums. I confess, after the first run-through, I'll do to Scotland what I do to the other Civs in Civ VI: turn down the music and play a mix of those bands on my iTunes while I play!

Finally, Scotland is a source of Great People and, as several have noted, Great Entertainment: the 'Immortal' Highlander, Sean, and one semi-historical character that has not been mentioned: The 26th Covenanter Regiment in Marlborough's army, a Scots units of infantry Not wearing the kilt (lowland Scots) had an officer named John Blackadder (his diary/memoirs are one of the Primary Sources regarding Marlborough's army). That alone is reason enough to include Scotland in the game.

 

[pietro1990]

I hope he doesn't talk like these guys in this video

 

[magha77]

I’m looking forward to this civ. The theme music is good. The ability seems strong with great people. The leader ability will be fun as well particularly with the UU. In my last game I had 4 highly promoted rangers that I made into 2 corp. Their movement and sight was great and I used them on my border on hills with great effect. Now with special ops it will be even better. As for the UI, a distillery would’ve been my preference but whatever. It is a game after all.

 

[Stomper66]

Boris Gudenuf one of the best posts I've seen on this thread. From what I've read though people aren't ranting to say that Scotland shouldn't be in the game. I mean I personally have nothing against Scotland but civs in whole continents like South America and most of Africa are missing and should be given priority over more European civs. I've been told to wait but I don't want to wait months/ years and pay more money to eventually see these civs in future DLC.
Plus I don't think that people are disappointed over the inclusion of Scotland (this was the case for Georgia). From what I've read people have been disappointed with the civ design and representation. You had some really good suggestions for units and tile improvements and I think they definitely felt more Scottish and less like British Scotland. To summarise I think people would have like to have seen Scotland done well rather than to have seen no Scotland at all.