New First Look: Lafayette

[Krikkit1]

Tubman leads Africa already. I think its enough already.

She doesn’t lead Africa.
She doesn’t lead anything Franklin doesn’t.

ie she leads America, but can choose to lead ANY civ in the previous 2 ages. She leads Africa just as much as Lafayette or Machiavelli.

 

[untitledjuan]

Tubman leads Africa already. I think its enough already.

That's like saying that Franklin leads Europe, it makes no sense at all.

Both Tubman and Franklin are American leaders, their inclusion does not represent neither Africa nor Europe.

We are really lacking some Sub-Saharan African leaders in the base game.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

I am frankly baffled we haven't seen Mansa Musa or a Central Asian leader to represent the lucrative Saharan trade/the Silk Road (Xerxes does not count).

Feels like a perfect fit for this system.

 

[untitledjuan]

I am frankly baffled we haven't seen Mansa Musa or a Central Asian leader to represent the lucrative Saharan trade/the Silk Road (Xerxes does not count).

Feels like a perfect fit for this system.

Ibn Battuta kind of represents that time period. He basically travelled around the Sahara and Asia using those trade routes. Still, he's more and Arab/Berber representation, we don't have any Central Asian leaders yet.

 

[Patine]

They were Franks. Which is why the country is called "France" and not "Gaul" or something else.

Franks were not really the same, at all.

 

[Ebon-Hawke-]

That's like saying that Franklin leads Europe, it makes no sense at all.

Both Tubman and Franklin are American leaders, their inclusion does not represent neither Africa nor Europe.

We are really lacking some Sub-Saharan African leaders in the base game.

You guys are technically right, but even in the modern age stream they talked about representing her ancestral path by going the Africa route, so clearly the devs see her as an Africa adjacent leader and others will as well I imagine.

 

[j51]

So claim her back.

Use the Bill and Ted version

 

[TheGrayFox]

You guys are technically right, but even in the modern age stream they talked about representing her ancestral path by going the Africa route, so clearly the devs see her as an Africa adjacent leader and others will as well I imagine.

Pretty insensitive on the devs part. She's an American

 

[Krikkit1]

Pretty insensitive on the devs part. She's an American

She’s American…however choosing Songhai for Exploration while playing her has some of the same feel as choosing Norman for Exploration while playing Franklin…
Both of them were born in North America, but most of their Exploration age ancestors were in other Continents. …so
They wouldn’t count as leaders from those continents…but it makes thematic sense to choose use civs from their ancestral continents when playing their history. (no mechanics connection)

 

[TheGrayFox]

She’s American…however choosing Songhai for Exploration while playing her has some of the same feel as choosing Norman for Exploration while playing Franklin…
Both of them were born in North America, but most of their Exploration age ancestors were in other Continents. …so
They wouldn’t count as leaders from those continents…but it makes thematic sense to choose use civs from their ancestral continents when playing their history. (no mechanics connection)

This isn't really how it works though

Ben Franklin is no more apporpriate to represent European civ or country than Tubman, a woman born in American chattel slavery, is to respresent East Africa ... . That isn't even touching upon the implications of having a woman, previously enslaved, represent the civs/nations which quite literally enslaved her in a 4x game about expanding, exploring, exterminating, and exploiting other nations and civs.

 

[Krikkit1]

This isn't really how it works though

Ben Franklin is no more apporpriate to represent European civ or country than Tubman, a woman born in American chattel slavery, is to respresent East Africa ... . That isn't even touching upon the implications of having a woman, previously enslaved, represent the civs/nations which quite literally enslaved her in a 4x game about expanding, exploring, exterminating, and exploiting other nations and civs.

Franklin doesn’t represent a European civ.
but a European civ could represent Franklin’s heritage.

Tubman doesn’t represent African civs…but they could represent her heritage.

As for an enslaved/oppressed leader in a 4x game, I think that just depends on what path you choose. You can go an oppressive route, or build to promote human flourishing.(or a little of both)

 

[TheGrayFox]

Franklin doesn’t represent a European civ.
but a European civ could represent Franklin’s heritage.

Tubman doesn’t represent African civs…but they could represent her heritage.

As for an enslaved/oppressed leader in a 4x game, I think that just depends on what path you choose. You can go an oppressive route, or build to promote human flourishing.(or a little of both)

In this game, Polynesians could also reflect Franklin and Tubman's heritage

 

[Nikolai II]

Franklin doesn’t represent a European civ.
but a European civ could represent Franklin’s heritage.

Tubman doesn’t represent African civs…but they could represent her heritage.

As for an enslaved/oppressed leader in a 4x game, I think that just depends on what path you choose. You can go an oppressive route, or build to promote human flourishing.(or a little of both)

Builder, non warring, peace loving and inward looking! Sounds like my play style.

 

[Krikkit1]

In this game, Polynesians could also reflect Franklin and Tubman's heritage

They could be the civ chosen, but they wouldn’t relate to the IRL person’s heritage

They could have Tubman go Khmer-Mongol-America, (or Persia-Hawaii-France) but they decided to showcase a path using an approximation to her IRL heritage.

 

[Patine]

Pretty insensitive on the devs part. She's an American

Indeed. She didn't even have Garvey and DuBois' direct connections with the Ghanian Independence Movement, led by Nkrumah, for instance.

 

[TheGrayFox]

They could be the civ chosen, but they wouldn’t relate to the IRL person’s heritage

They could have Tubman go Khmer-Mongol-America, (or Persia-Hawaii-France) but they decided to showcase a path using an approximation to her IRL heritage.

A very insensitive and assumptive approximation imo. She was born into chattel slavery in the Americas and did not know exactly where in East Africa she was from. Also the appeal to ancestry kind of falls apart since Ed Beach started that game as Eygpt....

 

[Krikkit1]

A very insensitive and assumptive approximation imo. She was born into chattel slavery in the Americas and did not know exactly where in East Africa she was from. Also the appeal to ancestry kind of falls apart since Ed Beach started that game as Eygpt....

(West Africa)….and she didn’t know where…but it was closer to Songhai than any other of the Exploration civs.

African American culture is its own unique combination of influences…but some of those influences are from Western Africa (ie Songhai adjacent).

The game was showcasing the flexibility…Songhai doesn’t unlock America, but Tubman does, so she can take different paths to get there, that go better with your feel of the history you want (Franklin..or Tubman can go Han-Ming-America)

 

[TheGrayFox]

(West Africa)….and she didn’t know where…but it was closer to Songhai than any other of the Exploration civs.

African American culture is its own unique combination of influences…but some of those influences are from Western Africa (ie Songhai adjacent).

The game was showcasing the flexibility…Songhai doesn’t unlock America, but Tubman does, so she can take different paths to get there, that go better with your feel of the history you want (Franklin..or Tubman can go Han-Ming-America)

West Africa is a lot bigger than just territories that were controlled by the Songhai and I'm not particularly a fan of making a woman born under a system of American chattel slavery, the leader of the Eygpt and Songhai based on some nebulous conception "ancestral" roots.

You're right it's definitely more flexible but we'll have to agree to disagree on appreciating the approach

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

It's one thing to have Tubman lead an African civ. Any leader can lead any civ, after all. That's not really problematic, because a player playing Augustus or Franklin or Ashoka or Confucius or Pachacuti could theoretically lead an African civ too.

It's an entirely different thing to suggest that Tubman counts as representation for Africa due to her heritage.

 

[Krikkit1]

It's one thing to have Tubman lead an African civ. Any leader can lead any civ, after all. That's not really problematic, because a player playing Augustus or Franklin or Ashoka or Confucius or Pachacuti could theoretically lead an African civ too.

It's an entirely different thing to suggest that Tubman counts as representation for Africa due to her heritage.

Exactly…the devs did the first…some civ fanatics are doing the second.