Five Take On The World (Conquests, Deity)

[Greebley]

I thought the chances of your northern dot were gone; I need to look at the save again I guess as I didn't evaluate it as an option.

The other problem with the northern dot is that if it flips, we lose the iron when the Greeks puts culture into it with only a war getting it back. Your choices of spots was good at the time, but now things have changed with the Greek crowding us closely. I think getting into a city as "flip-free" as possible is best.

Greece is a nasty civ for early flips as they have that 1-3-1 unit...Phalanx? I think we will want temples. We can keep up with culture easily enough in the early game... hopefully, later the Greek cities won't exist so it still won't be a problem.

It is likely I will be building in temples in towns due to this. With our cheap library, that will keep us at reasonable culture ratio until the middle ages. If the ratio is good enough we can even reduce the flip risk to 0 with units.

 

[gozpel]

You are right, the flip risk is probably too high to plant a city up there,

Hmm, now it seems we won't even get 5 decent cities,

What if...we move Edrine 2 north to the hill next to the iron mountain, and immediately plant a second city on the hill SE of Edrine's current location and the last city on the full blue dot by the ivory?

This is tight, but we can fix this when we removed the Greeks from the area. At this time of the game we should have most cities up and running or we won't get anywhere.

Ah well, whatever we do, we have to do it now.

 

[Greebley]

I decided not to play this tonight as I was pretty tired and didn't want to weaken our game with poor play. I play tomorrow.

 

[Greebley]

Preturn: Things look good to me.

IBT: We get punted out of Indian territory
Bursa: Temple->Wealth
Iroquis are building the temple of Artimis

1725 BC: Look at moving Edrine immediately, but decide to build settler from Edrine first. The switch to wealth should be temporary. I hate to do it, but we are going to lose buildings if we don't. This may happen anyway.

IBT: Americans are building the Pyramids.

1700 BC: The plan is to build the 2 settlers and get 5 towns to handle the cash problem. I hope it works

IBT:
Edrine: Settler->Settler

1675 BC: MM Edrine for gold

IBT:

1650 BC:

IBT:

1625 BC:

IBT: Greeks settle only 3 squares away from edrine to grab the iron permanantly. Not only that but there will be cultural presssure on Edrine as the spot has 6 squares of overlap.

1600 BC: Well I might as well continue to 1500 BC. Nothing we can do about it in the short term. We are now at 14 gold with -4 gpt.

IBT:

1575 BC: Well we also miss grabbing that cow I mentioned in my report by a single turn. We are on the spot, but culture expanded this turn to put it deep into enemy territory. Things are going very poorly here. Nad's suggested spot was also taken by the Greeks. They are growing huge very fast.

IBT:

1550 BC: Edrine is not moving so we switch to a barracks. My thought is to grab that Peninsula for our last settler. It is not my first choice (or second or third)

IBT: We get booted out of Greek territory.

1525 BC: I am going to stop early here. The next player gets some extra turns. I am unsure where to send the last settler. Our gold is finally balanced at 6 gold, but only by sacrificing shields and food for growth. The next player may want to decide if we are better going at -1 gpt until we get more gold.

Notes:

On where to place the settler, I made maps so we can discuss. I numbered some of the spots from 1 to 9 to help discuss it. I am thinking we probably won't get spots 4-9 (they will be taken when we get there). I am torn between settling spot 1 or 3. 1 suffers from a high flip chance and 3 is just not appealing, but a fifth town now is worth it. I would probably settle where I am and live with the flip chance (and build temples).

I wish I had realized the risk sooner of Greeks settling to grab the iron. Because I had so much overlap with us, I rejected it both for our placement and as a spot the Greeks would go for. Ah well.

Here is an overall map of the world:

[Edit: Oops; Sorry for the oversize picture. Forgot the 78% scaling.]

Here are 2 maps with 9 spots numbered to help decide what we want to do:

The Save

 

[hotrod0823]

With the greeks growing soo quickly it appears we will be at war sooner rather than later. Once the area is full they will be looking to expand by force.

An option is to take their iron grabbing city for ourselves. Waging war with next to no military and no iron at this stage will be hard and most likely be a short war with either us gaining a city with iron or risking early defeat.

I think we also need to think in terms of the long term and a half city or a city on the other side of the world does us little good. We need 5 strong core cities and I don't think there are any good spots left that we should "settle" for (pun not intended). Lets take it too the greeks and get the core that we want not just what they let us have.

I think we are also in trouble if we continue this gambit on lit. I understand the reasoning but I think we are better served using our shields for units and build up enough forces to take our last city by force from the greeks.

 

[Greebley]

A war will be tough all right. The Greeks are one of the worst civs to fight with inferior units.

One problem I see is that Thessilonica's spot isn't much better than where the settler is now. How many cities would we need to take out to get a good spot? One idea would be to try to destroy Thessilonica and Sparta and then grabbing both the iron and the cow.

-------------
For a really far out idea that is probably too exploitive, but I would love to know if it actually works:

Settle "Civ distance 2" from a Greek city and then gift the city to the Iroqouis. Now whenever I have settled that close to an AI city, they have declared war on me. Question is: Would the Iroquois and Greeks go to war? They may not, but I am really curious if that would actually work. Once the Greeks move their troops away to fight the Iroquois we attack them.

Its the only way I can think of that could allow you to get two AIs to fight without declaring war yourself. I have no idea if it works either - anyone else know?

This is only semi-serious; I can easily try this out in a private game. Its squirrely-ness factor seems a bit high for an SG.

Edit: I agree we may have to ditch Literature. It barely made sense to keep it going when we thought we would have 5 towns (My plan was that with 5 towns we would make enough gold to get back to normal fairly quickly). If we are planning war, we can't afford to maximize for wealth.

I am also unsure if it would be better to temporarily settle a 5th town to build workers and such (For that case, I would just settle where the settler is now), or whether it would be better to merge the settler back into an existing town.

 

[gozpel]

I wrote a whole novel of the mistakes we did in the game so far, but I scrapped it because it's done and over...and so is this game.

Playing a 5CC game, you need to grab those 5 cities as soon as possible. No granaries until that is done.

You also need to take those resources that are available without hesitation.

So both I and Nad made some junior mistakes there.

We can play on and try for it, but I'm as sure as i can be, we won't stand a chance. Our neighbour is Greece and have Hoplites. Ah well, that can be remedied with swords and horses.

And they are also tech leaders, they will simply pull the rest of the world against us and we will end up in an AW-situation
Noone will give us peace except for a city and down we go.

I rather restart this and play by the small means of sense I have, to get those 5 cities ASAP. And let Greebley start a new game, since his turns were kinda a waste of time. And continue on the roster as is.


But if we continue, plop down the settler on the hill 2 SE from the iron and join a worker to that town and whip temple. That's all I can think of. Borderexpansion should be enough for us for a few turns to build a swordsman or two, then what?

 

[Aggie]

got it. I haven't had time to look at the save or comments. I probably play tomorrow morning CET.

 

[hotrod0823]

I don't think all hope is lost.

I think we can get our last city and begin a slow process of crawling along in tech and trudgeing along until we can claim iron for ourselves and possibly trade for it then build up enough military to show some real muscle.

Greeks are not a nice neighbor to be fighting with archers and spears for sure but I don't think all is lost quite yet. The town situation is grim but not all is lost. Granaries, temples, or sooner libraries and we are a large territory sooner rather than later and can have a few size 12 cities in no time. We will have a strong economy to help us remain in touch with the tech leaders and it may come down to a the UU to pull this game out.

I say press on and see where this goes. When I was speaking of a quick strick against the Greeks I didn't even take into account the Hops. We will have to wait them out when we have the advantage. Longbows may see there day

Good luck Aggie.

Hotrod

P.S. I think we all knew what we were in for so play on.

 

[gozpel]

Sure, we move on and see how it turns out.

I would place a warrior or two near the horses, so noone comes and poach them.

 

[Greebley]

Agreed on the play on part. There are a lot of things the human player can do to get back into the running.

If we are thinking of war, some catapults might be a good idea too. They can often do a hp to attacking and defending units - essentially turning their Vets into Regulars at least some of the time.

So do we settle somewhere or merge the Settler back into a town? If it was my choice I would settle right where the settler is currently located.

 

[Aggie]

What I see doesn't make me very happy. We have to face hoplites, mounted warriors and Ancient Cavalry and have no decent site for our 5th city.

I would build the city where the settler is now, hook up the horses and build a lot of horsemen. We can only expect attacks from the north, which is a good thing.

If only we could afford the horsemen...

I will wait with playing the game until Nad is back. He should have a say in what to do next imho.

 

[Nad]

I'm back! Great to see this game is playing out so easily

I don't think we've made many mistakes at all, it's just the situation and the map we were landed with. We've played our hand as it was dealt to us, and that is what the challenge of civ is all about.

I'll add to the consensus: settle the 5th city where it is, and go for a big military buildup...lots of horses are the way to go. Our cash situation will be eased once deals expire, and then rather than brokering again we can use the cash for unit costs.

Our aim in war would be to raze a couple of cities and then make peace asap, before the greeks could really damage our core. Then we could abandon/refound our cities in the spots we want them.

 

[Aggie]

Playing now...for 10 turns...

 

[Aggie]

I played 11 to make a nice round number.

IHT: I plop the settler on the spot and found Uskudar. I am sure that this will be a Greek city in due time.
This is a certain flip city. But we at least make profit again (+1 gpt). Bursa and Istanbul are switched to barracks (from temple and wealth).
I abandon research on Literature for now and emphasize on growth. This means that we have -1 gpt and 6 gold.

IT: Someone finished the Pyramids and obviously it has to be the Greeks

Turn 1 (1500 BC)

IT: Istanbul: barracks->archer.

Turn 2 (1475 BC) Istanbul grew and is unhappy, so I switch to a taxman. We lost 4 gpt and had 4 gold in the treasury.
Now it's level at 4 gold.

IT: The Iroquois established an embassy in Istanbul.

Turn 3 (1450 BC)

IT: The Iroquois demand our 4 gold and I give it. Iznik finishes warrior and is put to wealth to prevent us from
losing a unit or building. Babylon finishes the Oracle.

Turn 4 (1425 BC) We connect the horses and a warrior returns to Istanbul. Istanbul is switched to a horseman and the taxman is put back to work.
Iznik is back to building a barracks. We have 0 gold and make 0 gpt.

IT: The Vikings appear to be at war with the Iroquois, according to Bubba the warrior. He will have a better look next turn.

Turn 5 (1400 BC)

IT: Edrine grows to size 2 and we make 2 gpt [dance]

Turn 6 (1375 AD) The Vikings coulds also be at war with India...

IT: Istanbul: horseman->horseman.

Turn 7 (1350 BC) Size 5 Istanbul demands extra luxury. It goes to 10% and we make 0 gpt. I finally check F4 and see that the Iroquois have a MA with the Vikings vs America.

IT: Bubba the warrior sees red people appearing.

Turn 8 (1325 BC) The red people are the Babylonians, who lack Math and have no tech over us
Ivory is connected and we make 2 gpt when lux goes down to 0%

IT: The Viking finish the MoM. Greece connects their empire to ours by roading to Uskudar. Uskudar however is not connected to the rest of the empire.

Turn 9 (1300 BC) We make 17 gpt. Polytheism would open up a 2fer with Greece, but we can't afford it. Main pruiority is to hook up the 2nd ivory and then connect the empire to Greece, allowing trade.
The min science run on Literature is re-started. We make 15 gpt and Lit is due in 39 turns.

IT: Babylon and the Iroquois sign a MA vs America. Istanbul: horse->horse. Statue of Zeus is an option, but sounds far-fetched.
Edrine: barracks->horse. Uskadar: worker->temple.

Turn 10 (1275 AD) It may be wise to build a temple in Edrine as well...
I can trade with Babylon: Mathematics for Philosophy.

Turn 11 (1250 BC) Istanbul is size 6 and lux needs to go to 10%. We still make 15 gpt.

Greece is the mighest power in the world, but in land grab as in culture. We obviously have to protect ourselves vs culture flips, but I fear for Uskudar and Edrine.

There are good things to report however. Two other civs lack certain techs and we might be lucky enough to trade lux and gpt for a tech and try 2fers. Who knows, maybe we would have a useful free tech in the MA already. On the flipside: if we want to attack Greece trading luxes may be impossible.

1250 BC save

 

[hotrod0823]

I've got it!

Hotrod

 

[Aggie]

No comment on my play We might have a few things to discuss, like:

- do we want to trade with Greece for 20 turns to get more into the tech race?
- or do we want to go to war vs them, meaning that we can't trade with anyone (no harbor, roads go through Greek lands)

 

[Greebley]

I got a look at the save and noticed that noone we know is building the statue of Zeus and we can get it in 18 turns. I think this is worth doing. We are very likely to get it and the Ancient Cav will really help.

That would mean not trading Ivory.

 

[hotrod0823]

1250 BC (0): Okay we are in the clear for now with our economy but our cities need some culture now and I can't get temples in Endrine or Bursa quite yet but they will be forthcoming. May have to swap off of horsemen to make it happen though. There are trade possibilites but we can't afford Poly. I leave research where it is as the best we can do is 20 turns. It would still be a long shot at that. Moving a warrior to Endrine to help its flip chances.

1225 BC (1): Wow what a waste of worker turns. There are 2 spots of pollution in Iroqouis territory and ofcourse the workers are slaving away cleaning up those mountians and jungle . MM Bursa to get barracks next turn. Not much else

INBT: Give the greeks 21 gold to go away. I have a feeling they will be back

1200 BC (2): Istanbul builds a horse and starts on Statue of Zues its due in 19 turns but can ofcourse be vetoed. I think we would benifit from for Ancient Cavs. GL is completed by the russians. Only the Iroquios are building the SoZ so we shall see if we have a shot. If not we have plenty of things to swap to. Babs now have Map Making and we can't afford it even at 7th prices. No deals to be had with our poor gold and gpt.

1175 BC (3): Sending workers to connect our wines we could do with a bit less lux tax. Not to mention more lux to trade.

1150 BC (4): Iroquios are building the HG . Move some random warriors check to see if we can get any trade but no one will deal.

1125 BC (5): Greeks start HG. Should be able to connect to there roads in a few turns.

1100 BC (6): India joins in the fight with Abe. Wines will be connected next turn. Sending a worker to connect the second silk. Lux may be our only trading items for a while.

1075 BC (7): Well that was fast Irouquois complete Statue of Zeus and we will swap Istanbul to a a temple and waste 1 shield With our new lux on line I drop lux tax to zero. We still can't afford to make a 2 fer. We can buy Construction but nothing that is tradable.

1050 BC (8): Istanbul build a temple starts horseman. WE can finally affor a 2 fer but there is no guarrentee that babs will trade us anything for Polytheism and we will be completely broke. I will hold out for now.

1025 BC (9): Our connection to greece is complete. I missed my change with Poly, Babylon has picked it up . I can trade ivory to Greece but we don't get much for it.

1000 BC (10): Not much. Our economy is okay and we have one temple done and another about to finish. Lux is down so we are pulling in 17gpt and have 153 in the Bank.

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads7/5vsworld1000BC.zip

Aggie: I took a look around before starting and there was really very little that could be done on either front you mentioned. Our economy was not strong enough to trade with the Greeks and frankly our forces weren't/aren't even close to being able to take on the Hops.

I did focus on trying to improve our culture with 2 new temples and did take a shot at the Temple of Zeus but missed it by about 11 turns. Interestingly, the Iroquios didn't have Ivory at one point when I checked in on them but they were still able to get Zeus.

 

[Aggie]

Hotrod, good try on Zeus. I would have been a huge break. I am happy that I couldn't have helped to get it. It would have been a shame if we had missed it by 4 turns...