Five Take On The World (Conquests, Deity)

[gozpel]

Well, we have 2 temples and a granary now and almost no military.

Anyways, solid turnsets of 2 last players. I understand the thoughts behind choices of builds, but we won't win this game by building granaries and temples.

I won't give away one gold towards techs, we won't get twofers and putting us in debt again won't give us a chance.

Horsemen and more horsemen is the only way to go now. Raze and replace cities where we want them as Greebley said.

We need at least a dozen horses, I'll see what I can do. My turns will be very much micro-managing and hopefully I can set up some type of strategy.

Greeks are in MA already and if I understand the turnlogs right, we can't fall behind any more.

I got it.

 

[hotrod0823]

Anyways, solid turnsets of 2 last players. I understand the thoughts behind choices of builds, but we won't win this game by building granaries and temples.

I absolutely dissagree with that statement. We must have a strong infrastructure now to avoid culture flips, promote growth and make sure that our size 12 cities are strong. This game, like I said before, will not be won in the early going. It will last until modern times. I would not be surprised if we don't see any battles until we get knights and even then we are not going to be strong enough to be the aggressor.

The last 5CC conquest game was not decided until tanks. Taking the time now to ensure we are adequately defended and have a strong infrstructure is key. We NEED temples, barrack, ducts, markets, etc etc they can not be over looked.

 

[gozpel]

We don't even have 5 decent cities. No one cared about my dotmap and we have now what we have.

So if not horsemen, what next? More temples and continue trading?

Ideas would be good.

 

[Aggie]

Sigh... I little discussion is good, but I really don't see what I should have done differently. I am playing another game now. Suggestions may come later.

 

[Nad]

Hmmm, interesting situation we're in here

I think Aggie and Hotrod did the right things in solidifying what we have for now.

As for the future, my view is a middle ground. In theory, I agree with Hotrod's approach, that we have to have good, solid cities, flip proof and with essential infra like granaries and markets, before we can lay the smack. In the situation we're in, I also understand Gozpel's thinking, in that the 5 cities we have right now are not the 5 cities we want long-term, so building too much infra will be a waste if we later have to abandon some of those cities.

Maybe we could approach it thus to reach a decision: which cities do we definitely want to keep long-term?

Maybe:

1) Istanbul
2) Bursa

Which cities do we probably want to keep long-term, but may choose to abandon if a better spot becomes available?

Possibly:

3) Edrine
4) Iznik

This leaves Uskudar as the pure temp city.

IF WE AGREE ON THIS, then we have to plan a war, because we know that we want to move at least one of our cities, possibly up to 3, and we want our "permanent" cities laid down asap, so they can build the infra they need to prepare for the later wars of conquest. In this case, we plan for a LONG war immediately, build up a military to raze some Greek cities with help from allies. Istanbul and Bursa already have their temples, so we get barracks ordered up and then pure troops.


If we decide we wish to keep Edrine/Iznik where they are long-term, then we have two options:

1) go for the Hotrod approach...the cities need temples, granaries, courts, harbours, ducts, markets etc, so we build infra as much as we can. We leave Uskudar as mainly a worker farm, and are in effect playing a 4 1/2 CC.

2) a quick war to raze one or two Greek cities, probably the ones near the iron, to abandon/refound Uskudar in the long-term spot we want, so we have 5 cities laid out as we want them. This approach would mean delaying the infra push and going immediate military, with the aim of building up our cities later, when we have all 5 positioned with a long-term view.


So those are options we can discuss.

Where do I stand?

IMO we prepare for war NOW to grab the iron. I understand that war now would be extremely difficult, we would be up against the major power with a nasty UU, so therefore we prepare for a lightning war purely to get iron, so we can refound Uskudar with this crucial reseource. We would have to raze 2 cities, I think, and then get peace asap. This will be extremely tough but possible.

If we assume that each of those Greek cities will be defended by 3 hoplites and maybe other units, we will need approx 12 horse attackers per city Add in 3 spears each for defence, and a settler to refound...that is very tough already, the requirements are nasty but we have to have a decisive force...the worst that can happen is if we go to war and fail in razing the Greek cities. Ideally we want to be able to do the razing on turns 1 and 2 of war, and then hold out for another handful of turns to sign peace, praying no alliances are struck.

If we go down this path we have to accept that our infra push will be long delayed and we will fall massively behind in tech, maybe even a whole age, since we can't trade resources either if we do this. We may be able to pick up a couple of concession techs from the Greeks, but we prepare for a long grind of deity hole in which we scrape as much as we can.


So team, let's talk....what are the pro's and con's of the options outlined, and is my plan even vaguely feasible? What should we do?

 

[Aggie]

I think that we indeed should build up military and attack asap. My only concern with Uskadar was that it would flip, hence the temple. Otherwise I think it is a terrible city (except for getting us workers...).

Note that I started building those horses and barracks. I was hardly doing more than that in the cities we don't like that much.

 

[Greebley]

I only see Uskadar as expendable. Edrine is a good location, it is only when we discovered it missed the iron did we want to move it. Bursa's overlap is only 2 squares with Iznik which means both can grow to size 19 eventually. I think the cost of moving it so it can grow to size 20 is not worth it.

I also think we need all 5 temples. Edrine has 3 squares overlap and is civ distance 5 from our capitol. I am guessing if we keep within 1/5 of Greek culture we would need 8 or so units to supress flip chances entirely. Edrine is the city we really don't want to flip; if it does that would really bad.

So I think we want all 5 temples ASAP. After that I agree on military build up. The flip chances are two high and we would end up a 3CC before we reached the industrial age I fear.

If we don't want to go the military route, then I suggest abandoning Uskadar. The problem is that if it flipped, then it makes Edrine more likely to flip.

If we were allowed a 6th city for a short time, I would advocate waiting for Uskadar's expansion, and then place a city 2 squares NE of Uskadar (to grab the cow for worker production) and then abandoning Uskadar. That would give us a city with less overlap with Edrine that would not hurt us if it flips. Since we can't have 6 cities, we would have to abandon another city to do that, which is not worth it.

 

[gozpel]

Ah well, the situation is a bit different now


The Save


975bc - Greece completes the Great Wall
Istanbul horse -> worker
Edrine temple -> horse

950bc - Iroquois completes the Temple of Artemis
And Greece finish Hanging Gardens

Istanbul worker -> horse

Bubba spots brown borders over water

925bc - Greece declare war on Iroquois!

Bursa horse -> worker

Bubba sees a russin galley, they know MapMaking and CoL. Disband Bubba.

900bc - Bursa worker -> horse. Got the worker by forest chop.

875bc - Greece starts Sun Tzu

I have to take the chance to trade when I can. I let citizens work silk for extra income

Get Currency from Greece for ivory, 200g and 12 gpt
Construction from America for Currency, 6 gpt and 25g
Currency and Construction to Babylon for CoL, Poly and 18g
Currency to Russia for MapMaking and 49g

And we are in Middle Ages. We got Monotheism, continue trading.

Greece have Feudalism and Babylon have Engineering

Monotheism to Iroqouis for Republic, 33 gpt and 73g
Currency and Republic to Vikings for Monarchy and 19g
Monotheism, Republic, Monarchy and 59g to Babylon for Engineering

Greece refuses to sell Feudalism, not even for 2 techs and 37 gpt

Monotheism to India for 677g and 12 gpt
Republic to America for 139g and 4 gpt

2 techs, 920g and 53 gpt is only close to get Feudalism, talk about inflation!

I'm happy with what we got.

I switch government, we draw a happy 5 turns.

850bc - Nothing

825bc - I forgot Russia, I give them Poly for 2 g and they draw Feudalism.
I get Feudalism for Monotheism, Monarchy and 171g.

Engineering to Greece for Iron, 28 gpt and 191g
Monarchy to America for 3 gpt and 4g

I keep the research on Literature with a scientist during anarchy, 20 turns to go. I let the team decide if a change is better after we are a Monarchy or whatever we choose.

800bc - Russia is building Sun Tzu

I sell Engineering to Iroqouis for 11 gpt, 30g and a worker
I give America Mono for a worker a 4g. We are still 2 techs up on them and I prefer to keep every gold we have.

775bc - Babs and India are building Sun Tzu too.

I leave it here a turn early, we have to decide what government we want to have next turn.
Monarchy is probably the best if we want to build up military.

Our situation is slightly better now, with 1177 gold in the bank and 73 gpt atm.
We have iron for another 18 turns.

I switched Istanbul to aqueduct, rush a temple in Uskudar next turn.

 

[Aggie]

Fantastic, tech leaders


But with Greece having the Great Wall things are a lot more difficult! What now? Should we simply beeline to Sipahi? What a fast game

 

[Nad]

That is superb trading gozpel

The slingshot window was very narrow yet you managed to capitalize on it to the full Things are certainly different now, and my previous post seems somewhat redundant now

Since we've no chance of saltpeter, waiting for sipahi may be dangerous...maybe we could trade for it?

Nevertheless, I would be inclined to go the peaceful route now with 4 1/2 cities, since we are well and truly in the brokering loop and can wait for our UU.

 

[Greebley]

I third the nice trading comments.

One thing I think we should decide:

Can we go straight for our UU or should we get knights first with the purpose of our short war to relieve our cities of cultural pressure? We are doing well, but a flip could change things for us.

Oh. we should establish an Embassy with the Greeks if we haven't already so we know where their capitol is and can better estimate of our risks.

I guess it doesn't matter until Chivalry or Lit is learned; but it might be a good idea to continue building up Horses and keep cash some reserves for upgrades (actually at 120 gold per upgrade we only can upgrade 10 horse with our current gold), so we don't need a whole lot of horse).

Leo's would be really nice. Doubt we can get it though.

 

[Nad]

btw, republic would be my government of choice...any objections?

I hope to play tonight.

gozpel...just played
Nad...UP NOW
Greebley...ON DECK
Aggie
Hotrod

 

[Aggie]

I would also choose Republic

 

[Greebley]

I agree rebublic is best. Only if we get a huge number of units would we want to consider another form a government as Rebublic has the highest unit costs.

For example, Democracy would nearly halve our unit costs which could be useful if we had 200 odd units.

 

[hotrod0823]

to all your war mongers out there !

I think our fate was sealled with those excellent trades by Gozpel.



I think republic is the way to go. Is there a prebuild for TGL we may have an excelent shot at it or Leo's and now is the time to decide. With only 5 or rather 4 1/2 cities having one building a wonder could be a dissaster or a huge boost.

Boy am I glad we are scientific it is really going to make the difference. One other important thing to note is our cheapest culture building is yet to come and a few rushed libraries would do wonders to releave some cultural pressures.

I think we need to bee line to our UU and we will know soon enough if we are lucky enough to have salt.

Overall I think that contact with Russia and the slingshot will make all the difference.

Again well done!

Hotrod

 

[Nad]

5 Against The World, inherited turn 775BC


Things are looking great, certainly far better than 20 or 30 turns ago!

The tech pace is intense at the moment, a welcome to pangaeic deity! (Out of interest I looked in my dictionary to find out if "pangaeic" was the correct adjective of "pangaea", but "pangaea" isn't even in the dictionary...WTH?!)

We need a lot of embassies quickly. There are a lot of wars going on and we need to know the contacts situation to make maximum use of brokering chances. This will be my top priority as soon as we become a republic.


IT: we are now a republic!


Turn 1, 750BC: science to 0%, lux to 10%.

Micromanage everything and change a few builds: Iznik to aqueduct, Bursa to harbour, Edrine to cathedral.

Founded all embassies. Athens is a bit scary: it is defended by 5 hoplites and contains the Colossus, Pyramids and Great Wall (with a freebie granary and walls) as well as temple and barracks

Now here's a full lowdown of the international situation for everyone's benefit and reference:

Vikings: know everyone except Russia, at war with America.

Iroquois: full contacts, at war with Greece and America.

America: knows everyone except Greece, at war with Vikings, Iroquois, Babylon and India...a dogpile, isn't going to last much longer at this rate.

Russia: lacks contact with Vikings, Babylon and India.

Babylon: lacks contact with Greece and Russia, at war with America.

India: lacks contact with Russia, at war with America.

Greece: lacks contact with Russia and America, at war with Iroquois.


I rush Uskudar's temple for 148g...judgement call, if we keep the city it will be money well spent, if not then it's a waste.


IT: Vikings offer alliance against America, no thanks.

Uskudar temple ---------> granary

Iroquois are building Sun Tzu.


Turn 2, 730BC: Russia has literature..boo! So does Greece and the two now have contact. Babylon, who has some cash, knows neither! We have the opportunity to broker as a monopolist!

Buy lit from Russia for 212g. Sell lit to Babylon for 171g + 12gpt

No-one else has much to offer but we've already got our money back.

I don't bother setting a scientist on anything.

Bursa and Edrine changed to libraries. I choose to rush Bursa's library in the cultural battle against Delphi.


IT: Greece has a lot of hoplites and MDI...I'm now very glad we're not fighting them!

Bursa library ----------> harbour

Russia and Greece start TGL.


Turn 3, 710BC: despite the fact that the ongoing wars may help slow the tech pace, I'm not going to start a prebuild, as I doubt we'll get anything from all the cascades, and we cannot afford to be lumped with an extremely expensive cathedral.


IT: Babylon starts TGL.


Turn 4, 690BC: not much happening, keeping an eye on the tech situation.


IT: Viking galleys floating around in large numbers.

Edrine library ---------> granary

Vikings start TGL, Iroquois (re?)start Sun Tzu


Turn 5, 670BC: we're making 97gpt...when was the last time you did that with 5 cities in 670BC, and without a single market?


IT: Bursa and Uskudar borders expand.

Vikings building Sun Tzu, Babylon building TGL.


Turn 6, 650BC: We're now at 1000g + 102gpt. Since we have resources to trade I decide to rush Bursa's harbour.


IT: Bursa harbour ---------> market


Turn 7, 630BC: Babylon, India and Greece now have chivalry, and we have trade routes with all except Russia, America and Babylon. We can really only broker to Russia, but since we could sure use chivalry while we have iron I decide to purchase.

Silks + 50gpt gets Chivalry from India. Chivalry gets 240g + 18gpt from Russia.

Not much of a broker, but we got about half our investment back. And I can now upgrade. 5 horses become knights, the final horse guarding the corner preventing settlement will get to a barracks as soon as a warrior can replace him on guard duty.


IT: Iroquois building TGL, Russia, Babylon and Greece start Templar.


Turn 8, 610BC: we're not the smallest nation, America is down to just 3 cities.


IT: Istanbul aqueduct ----------> market

India building TGL


Turn 9, 590BC: final horse upgraded. Silk forest chop near Edrine begins to try to get the granary before growth.


IT: Iroquois and America make peace.


Turn 10, 570BC: Istanbul is our first size 7 city, and already does 15spt. At size 12 it may be able to get in the 25-30spt range, very nice!

Rush Bursa's marketplace, it will more than pay for itself. America has just 2 cities left.

I'm going to play an extra turn to get to 550BC, a rounder hand-off date.


IT: Bursa market ---------> courthouse


Turn 11, 550BC: America is down to OCC!! I therefore take the opportunity to sell literature to them for a worker and 3g.


Notes for the next player:

Bursa grows to size 7 next turn. It is making 7fpt, so might not even need a granary to get to size 12 quickly.

Iznik is working an ivory plains instead of a grass becuase the worker's irrigation completes this turn, so that square will be 2 food anyway, and gets bonus shields and gold.

Edrine's forest chop is about to complete...I think I've miscalculated slightly and the granary will still complete before growth, so you may need to swap tiles around next turn to delay the growth.

We can trade our only ivory to India for gems + 43g, but that hardly seems worth it to me, 43g to give India another luxury.

Summary: we're down to 371g + 86gpt, but our cities are now larger and have much more infra. And we have a token force of knights in case anyone comes to get some

Good luck to the next player!

The Save

Greebley...UP NOW
Aggie...ON DECK
Hotrod
Gozpel
Nad

 

[Aggie]

When will this end. It's like a dream that we are leading in the tech race. Is it an option to attack Greece with knights, or is this foolish?

 

[Nad]

Well, we have 6 knights and the Greeks probably have about 60 MDI/hoplites

It is wierd how we can be in the mix tech-wise, but through careful trading we are! If we can trade for saltpeter then we can start offense in the age of sipahi. Not having iron could work to our advantage, since we could build loads of horses to upgrade. That would be expensive but if we trade well we may have the gold. If the opposition only have muskets, then a force of say 20-25 sipahi could do some serious damage

 

[gozpel]

I like the Chivalry trade, that is a "must have" if we are going to whack'em Greeks. Which I think we should after the deals are over.

Uskudar is the only city we really need to move at this time, so if we prepare for a short war, knights are excellent. Raze a couple of cities and then use the knights to kill off foot-units en masse, to make Alexander come to the table with open eyes I really hope they stay at war with Iroqouis.
(How many workers would we get if we razed Sparta? Wishful thinking, I know.)

I had a look into the trade situation:

give GreecE - ivory and 12 gpt - 5t
from Greece - iron and 28 gpt - 7t

from Iroqouis - 33 gpt 5t
from Iroqouis - 11 gpt 8t
up chivalry

give India - 50 gpt and silks - 16t
from India - 12 gpt - 5t

give America - 6 gpt - 5t
from America - 4 gpt - 5t
from America - 3 gpt - 7t

from Babs - 12 gpt - 11t

from Russia - 18 gpt - 16t

Vikings - no deals

we pay 68 gpt
we get 121 gpt

So our income of 86 gpt will change dramatically soon, it will be around 30 gpt without counting new markets. We better don't overspend from here on, we might need a buffer.

 

[gozpel]

Or as Nad said, build heaps of horses. That's a good plan as any.

I just thought of it, we should get a couple of more workers asap, to improve the lands. Bursa are working food-tiles and have 4 forests to chop. Squeeze out a couple of workers from there and we might find a couple of BG's hidden in the woods.