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[RD] Florida School Shooting

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hrothbern, Feb 15, 2018.

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  1. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    And I find the way you interact with "the other side" credulous and naive, so I suppose that between us we've just demonstrated the role perspective plays in human affairs, eh?

    Call it a hunch based on long experience arguing with intransigent pro-gun people. Actually I suppose that he may not be aware the "solutions" he proposes are infeasible, but being too ignorant to realize one is proposing non-solutions seems like only a small step up from arguing in bad faith.
     
  2. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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  3. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Why do you consider it irrelevant?
     
  4. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Veteran of 1000 psycic wars

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    So, are you intentionally missing the point?

    Your "I have to undergo the background screening" is glaringly NOT the case, as long as *I*, or anyone else, has a gun to sell you on the "I don't want it any more" market. Sure, you can now say "well, but I'm a law abiding citizen so I would be sure to do that background check," but no one is actually going to make sure that you do.
     
  5. chijohnaok

    chijohnaok King

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    Any system (fixing the existing system, scrapping it and creating a new one, etc) that requires background checks as part of the process for someone legally obtaining a firearm is only going to be effective if the people/states/agencies that feed data into the system are properly and consistently doing so.

    So the 'data input' process is going to have to be fixed one way or another.
     
  6. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Veteran of 1000 psycic wars

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    That's true enough. There is a time element in that. The gun lobby wants a "check fast, loosely if necessary, don't unduly delay the process of getting the sale completed" priority. I would prefer a "get it right" priority. Guess who designed the current system, and guess who didn't.
     
  7. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Pointing to the possible "cultural or societal difference between the US" and other countries isn't my favorite though, because its dancing so close to the "different races/religions can't live together peacefully" argument. I know that wasn't your intent at all, but can you see my concern?
    I think I have raised the possibility of strict liability (or any liability) for the manufacturers with you in the past and you were vehemently opposed... Am I misremembering?
     
  8. chijohnaok

    chijohnaok King

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    So you are talking about the "private gun sale" part of this.That was entirely separate from what I was talking about.

    But, to your point, if I wanted to 'no longer have my gun' and then sell it, gift it, etc to someone else, should there be some sort of background check requirement for that?
    I would not be opposed to that. You could make it a requirement that private gun sales must be "facilitated' through a licensed gun dealer. The purchaser would have to fill out the ATF Form 4473 (background check form) at the licensed gun dealer's store. The form would be submitted through the NICS background check process. Only after that background check is (successfully) completed would I be able to consummate the transaction of selling my firearm to the purchaser (and that would be done in the store). The gun dealer would be able to charge a fee for his services.
     
  9. chijohnaok

    chijohnaok King

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    The NICS system was part of the Brandy Handgun Violence Prevention Act.
    That bill was introduced by Rep. Chuck Schumer February 22, 1993 and the final version was passed on November 11, 1993. It was signed into law by President Clinton November 30, 1993.

    The Democratic party held a majority in both houses at the time.

    Are you saying that Schumer, Clinton and the Democrats are tools of the NRA?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018
  10. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Excellent question... the appropriate comparison being "than cops who do not carry guns"... UK cops versus US cops for example.
     
  11. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    I was responding to this:

    "individuals in possession of a gun were 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession."

    are cops more likely to be shot than people without guns?
     
  12. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    Reading more about the French gun laws, I came to that rather interesting Historical facts.

    In the old regime, hunting and military service were restricted to the aristocracy. After the French revolution, the society divided in orders was disbanded and the right for any citizen to keep an arm was considered a symbol of his emancipation in a freed state.

    It's only after world war 2 that the country established a heavy gun control, immediately at the liberation in 1944: the French resistance has been disarmed and the civilians were called to voluntarily bring their guns in police stations so that they could be neutralized. Something which has largely been done.

    Since then, the legislation has been further clarified and now weapons are classifed in 4 categories. The main criteria to differenciate weapons seem to be their rounds capacity.
    - Category D can be bought by anyone over 18 but has no round capacity (pepper spray, black powder guns, blank or deactivitated guns).
    - Category C (manual operation long guns with a capacity of 11 rounds or less, or semi-automatic weapons with a capacity of 3 rounds or less) requires a hunting licence and a medical certificate.
    - Category B (handguns with a capacity of 20 rounds or less, manual or semi-automatic long guns with a capacity of 31 rounds or less) requires a shooting sport licence, an affiliation to a certified shooting range, at least 3 training sessions with an instructor, and a medical certificate. The shooting licence is only available for a period of 5 years (renewable under the same conditions).
    - Category A are all weapons with a superior firepower as well as firearms disguised as another object. They are prohibited to all civilians.

    Interestingly, it seems the only two purposes allowing people to own a gun in France are hunting and sport. There's no mention at all about self-defense.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018
  13. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    This question isn't, like, relevant to that assertion though. The analogous question would be whether cops who are assaulted while carrying a gun are more or less likely to be shot than cops who are assaulted while not carrying a gun.
     
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  14. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    But "cops" in this context are not the best comparison. The better comparison is "cops with guns" versus "cops without guns"...
     
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  15. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    I was being sarcastic with the Alternative facts

    The amount of crime as well as violence in the US is very high compared with all other modern western countries, the US can pat itself on the back for overall decline in crime but it seems rather dishonest to say that the current laws are working when you have a much higher gun crime, homicide rate and violent crime rate. It feels rather like self delusional given that you (as in the US) keep having mass shootings monthly to celebrate the success of existing gun laws. I dont mind if the US crime rate being at 50 year lows isnt something that is positive, its just not really that low and you have to accept that the US is a violent place overall.

    You can have a reasonable laws so that Rual America can have guns, enjoy guns but at the same time have safe guards to reduce violent gun crime and mass shootings.
     
  16. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Veteran of 1000 psycic wars

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    Administration of the system can be pushed towards "do it fast" or pushed towards "get it right." The perfect example of how the administration of the system has had priorities set is that the military was told "provide input" without any further oversight. In a bureaucracy when you say "do this" and don't add "here's a deadline, and here's the penalty for not complying" you are whistling in the dark. Democrats aren't perfect, by any means, but they have been undercut at every turn by manipulation in the administration of the program...all while the real problem gets continuously pushed aside under cover of "but the checks don't work so who cares if they can be just ignored anyway."

    Meanwhile, the continued "well, let's just pretend that there won't be any private sales to make it true when I say that I have to have a background check," while amusingly disingenuous, is pretty old by this point. Maybe if you had gone straight to "private sales need to be regulated too" I'd take you seriously, but as it stands I suspect that the next time you address the issue you will be more than happy to promote the Florida system as adequate if only the background check system worked, and ignore the reality that the system is designed to make sure that anyone who wants the gun maker's products will be able to buy one.
     
  17. Arwon

    Arwon

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    I reckon the fastest way to get effective gun control in the USA is for some rich person to buy every black American an assault rifle
     
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  18. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    The stat I'm responding to compared people (Pennsylvanians) with guns to people without them, the former are 4.5 times more likely to be shot than the latter. So I asked if it was more likely armed cops are shot than people without guns. I'm assuming the answer is yes. But why? Because they have dangerous jobs confronting criminals. Well, many people with guns have dangerous jobs. Security personnel, drug dealers, robbers, clerking a store in a high crime area, etc...

    So I'd expect people with guns to be shot more often than people without them, but owning a gun doesn't mean you're 4.5 times more likely to be shot - other factors are involved. Somebody living out in the boonies with a gun isn't 4.5 times more likely to be shot than unarmed city dwellers in the midst of a drug war.

    Your question compares cops with guns to unarmed cops. Where do cops police without guns? Not Pennsylvania. Why can cops get away with policing without guns? Because guns are banned? Because crime rates are low? Because the risk they'll be shot is much lower than cops policing a society loaded for bear.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018
  19. chijohnaok

    chijohnaok King

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    So those administering the program are to blame?
    Administration of the NICS background check program is the responsibility of the Executive Branch of government.
    Columbine happened in 1999.
    Fort Hood in 2009.
    Sandy Hook and Aurora in 2012
    San Bernardino in 2015
    Orlando 2016.

    Who was administering the program when these shootings occurred? Where they manipulating the system?

    I didn't go "straight to private sales" because that was outside of what I was talking about earlier. When you clarified that you were in fact referring to private sales I responded with an answer. I was sincere in my answer. Whether you take my response "seriously" or not.......

    The overwhelming majority of gun sales in the United States involve a background check.
    Politifact addressed the issue in 2017:

    How often are guns sold without background checks?
    The answer: 22 percent obtained their gun without a background check.

    http://www.politifact.com/florida/s...gun-sales-lack-background-checks-new-data-sa/

    I was not promoting the Florida system as adequate. I simply explained the Florida system as it exists.
     
  20. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Veteran of 1000 psycic wars

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    While conveniently leaving out the gigantic flaw designed into the system. "Just" one in five gun sales go off without a background check. I'll bet those are the one in five who are just unaware of the requirements and really really mean well, so let's continue to drive the discussion as much as possible into the minutia of the background check system.

    Wasn't someone around here talking about "good faith"?
     
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