Foreign Policy: Apolyton

[2metraninja]

The next part:

2metraninja: I see you got Taoism but never converted
MZprox: it's a bit expensive to do all these revolting.. but we will do it in 2 turns
want to finish a settlers before we do it
MZprox: too bad our religion is not spreading.. we will have to do it manually
2metraninja: our we did spread manually too
our SPI turned out to be quite handy in switching religions and civics around
I think I never played SPI till now
MZprox: spi can do some nice tricks.. popping in and out into civics as it needed
2metraninja: yep. this too
soy you say Incas got the stone?
did they connected it already or they just settled it?
MZprox: they will settle there in this turn, they need border pop to the stone, We just can't do anything to stop them doing it..
I don't think they have masonry yet.. actually they just got writing a few turns ago
2metraninja: they got really bad hit by WPC
MZprox: totally meaningless war..
2metraninja: though, they must be tough, they won the war
MZprox: Now RB has two very weak neighbors who did not expand so theycan grow even bigger
2metraninja: bunch of SP players was ruling WPC
they think a human will fall to axe rush easy as AI
MZprox: but there was noreal point.. all of us have much land to settle, and maintenance holds us back anyway...
2metraninja: well, SP players...
this sums up everything
and yes, we are worried too about RB having all the land they need without competition
and have 2 weak weak neighbors who will be only food for their ambitions once the time comes
MZprox: just to let RB have a strong neaighbour we would prefer your victory on the zulus..
2metraninja: heheh
the guys made a guess that you wanted to flatten us by saying Zulus will die soon
MZprox: I don't really speak in the name of my team, but I usually consider my current rival the top civ only . others are potentially ally
zulu is a dead civ.. I guess all their money is going for the maintenance
2metraninja: I told them you rarely waste words to flatten

 

[2metraninja]

And maybe the most interesting part:

MZprox: one thing we are interested right now is to get luxury
we have gold and wine, and no other source
well fur in the tundra, would be a food less city.. or incense in the desert but we don't have calendar yet..
so happyness is a problem
2metraninja: to me it seems we are in the similar map portion
we have Wines and gold too
MZprox: everyone got gold and wine, but rb has gems spices and whatnot..
2metraninja: we have Silks, but we were dragged away of Calendar path with this war
spices they have because they have Calendar
Gems they got from the jungle
MZprox: yes but with calendar we could have incense on desert tiles.. anyway, hopefully we will get calendars soon
Изпратено в 14:30, вторник
2metraninja: there is elephant between us and Uciv
MZprox: I'm just saying if you haven't connected something because you already have it then you should so we could trade
not that we have anything yet..
2metraninja: we can have 2 more wine only
HR is what we rely on for our big cities
MZprox: yes.. we are in hr too.. usdually I try to skip it and go for constitution fast
2metraninja: we wanted to skip it too, but the game demands it
RB have one real advantage btw
the map maker is from RB and he makes map which is somewhat "RB flavored"
not that he made something special for RB to have, but just RB players are used to this type of maps
low on happy, lush green land, the distances between nations is RB type, everything
we have few members who have experience with RB maps
and they tell us this
MZprox: i did not like our starting position.. we had to choose between good production or good commerce.. we choosed a former.. and now after revealing the land we need to relocate our capital..
if we had spot our goldmine before settling we would had been in much better position
2metraninja: this one is another RB special flavor - to have a capitol which gives you choices
and those choices are important and game shaping
we had choice between production, food and commerce powerhouse
MZprox: there was a point in early game where RB had soo high gnp that it seemed to be impossible.. we were among the first to connect the goldmine, we were among the first to build cottages so we must had been close to have the best gnp possible, yet they had twice as much..
2metraninja: seems those guys are really good at the game
MZprox: before any wonder/religion etc
2metraninja: I cant see where their huge GNP is coming from now either, but here you go
we are glad French got MoM
RB getting MoM was going to be terrible
MZprox: and we are glad aztec got the oracle and not rb pulled philo with it
2metraninja: and we are quite sure they were after it for quite some time
yep, CP did it well
btw, what are your relations with CP?
MZprox: not much..
they got horseback riding.. a strange choice
2metraninja: yes, we see their HAs too
which is quite strange
but you must have in mind RB's high power.
maybe CP are preparing for the worst
MZprox: it's not a big secret that Aztec is going after the Apostolic palace, RB will have the great library and the free great artist.. there is no civ which could stop them
2metraninja: no?
I was fond on trying for TGLib
but with this war...
we have conspiracy theories that someone (RB) made Spaniards to attack us
MZprox: yeah.. they have aesthetic.. in the next two turns i think they will finish code of laws then they go for literature
2metraninja: to slow us down
we were few turns from Aesthetics ourselves too
damned Spanish
MZprox: but in a few turns we will have much better info about what they are researching, we are focusing our spying on them
2metraninja: CP are focusing espionage on RB too
btw, we have couple of players who are mastered the black art of demographics hacking - they read numbers and tell us what is going on and who is doing what
MZprox: I know RB sees us as a rival too.. they are always logging in after each of our loggings.. it's quite insane, but they are maniac
2metraninja: yes, RB logs to take screenshots of demographics
they do this demohacking too
MZprox: I know most of these things.. I1m just not that interested to do it
2metraninja: its nice to have that info stored and use it when you need it
MZprox: I saw one RB game rport where they measured the pixels on the demographics graphs to analyze each events etc..
2metraninja: yes, they do that
spreadsheets, simulations
2metraninja: I will repeat my personal (and few others) opinion that we will be happy if you get Lib
MZprox: well thanks, it all depends if we can grow peacefully or not
to strengthen our relationship we can give you infos, especially which can be used against rb
2metraninja: sure thing
team members were excited about your initial message
MZprox: in my games big military forces were never my strength.. and it's a quite dangerous game.. even the inca could cause big harm to us.. sure would slave a big army fast, but then we would have even smaller cities
2metraninja: we were hoping for peace to try and catch with RB, but zulus are trying to wreck our efforts. we will repel them of course, but this costs us much
MZprox: lets hope you can annex them eventually
maybe talk with Aztc if you havent already
2metraninja: to speak about what?
with CP?
MZprox: hmm i thought they are on the east side of zulus, but now thinking it must be the mayas
so you could split the zululand maybe
2metraninja: ah, yeah, but this must be Maya
we have no contact with them yet
and I cant believe Zulu did not secured their back first
MZprox: They are like barbs.. they don't even have open borders with anyone
2metraninja: they attacked the only one they had OB with
I suspect they agreed to OB only to look at our lands
and I think they were excited to see we have so less and weak units only
poor guys, things changed in just 2 turns
MZprox: anjy chance you could talk them out of this war?
2metraninja: we are trying
MZprox: is rb's power is high?
2metraninja: yes, it is
MZprox: we keep it low, mostly for maintenance reasons
2metraninja: not sure if those are actual soldiers or their numerous pop only
they might be afraid of desperate attacks too
MZprox: ok i have to go now..

 

[YossarianLives]

Awesome chats. Lots of food for thought. Thanks 2metra!

 

[Aivoturso]

Noticed this in public forum:

Apolyton team's new contact address is:

ottomandiplo (@) gmail.com

 

[YossarianLives]

Apolyton got Alphabet.

Spoiler :

 

[Bowsling]

Huh, so that feature does work after we get Alphabet. Interesting.

 

[Aivoturso]

Yes. Alphabet is very useful even if tech trading is not allowed.

 

[2metraninja]

Lets send Apolyton official NAP proposal. From what we spoke with MZ, we both agreed that 100t NAP would work good for us. We are not neighbors and we are not direct competitors, even exactly the opposite. And 100 turns from now is good that it does not coincide with the finishing date of any of our current NAPs.

Should we include OB clause, no espionage spending beyond seeing graphs, exchange of intelligence information, etc?

 

[classical_hero]

Yes. Alphabet is very useful even if tech trading is not allowed.

For two things. It allows you to see what other's have got and besides that it allows you to build spies and build research.

 

[YossarianLives]

Lets send Apolyton official NAP proposal. From what we spoke with MZ, we both agreed that 100t NAP would work good for us.

Should we include OB clause, no espionage spending beyond seeing graphs, exchange of intelligence information, etc?

Yes, let's do this. I agree with everything you included; OB, espy agreement and exchange of info. This will let us start putting espy against them to get their graphs (since we're just burning it against UCiv now that we see their tech and know they're not attacking us)

 

[YossarianLives]

I was taking a look at the diplo screen and noticed that besides our trades with RB and WPC, the only other teams trading are Apolyton and CivFr. CivFr is getting Wheat, and Poly is getting Sugar.

Spoiler :

 

[2metraninja]

Proposed draft to be sent to Team Apolyton:

"Dear Team Apolyton,

As a base for our mutual beneficial cooperation here is an agreement we are offering to you to consider and sign:

Section 1. Members of the Apolyton-CFC treaty

1.1. Team Apolyton

1.2. Team CFC

Section 2. Pact Duration and Terms

2.1. The pact cannot be canceled before the beginning of turn 218.

2.2. The members of this pact cannot enter in to agreements with third parties which interfere to any of its clauses.

Section 2. Treaty Duration and Terms

2.1. The treaty cannot be canceled before the beginning of turn 200.

2.2. The members of this treaty cannot enter into agreements with third parties which interfere to any of its clauses.

2.3. Both members of the treaty must adhere to all clauses together.

Section 3. Non-Aggression Pact

3.1. The members agree to not conduct actions which will lead to declaration of war between the members of this pact while this pact is in effect.

3.2. If any of the members is at war with third party, the other member agrees to not help to that third party.

3.2.1. Giving aid to a third party includes providing gold, gifting units, and giving intelligence information

3.3. Both members agree to consult with the other member before gifting military units to a third party, whether they are at war with a treaty member or not, for the duration of the pact.

Section 4. Open Borders

4.1. Both members agree to maintain an Open Borders treaty to facilitate trade and unit movement for the length of this pact.

Section 5. Espionage

5.1. Both members agree to not spend/gain espionage points against the other beyond the needed amount for seeing the graphs.


Section 6. Temporary Exceptions

6.1. Temporary exceptions can be made to the terms of the pact with the express agreement of both members. This is meant to allow either member to react to unforeseen circumstances or circumstances outside of their control.

Section 6. Amendments

7.1. A proposed amendment may be submitted by either member.

7.2. A proposed amendment will be adopted upon agreement of both members.



Please feel free to correct/propose/discuss any clause you find necessary.

2metraninja on behalf of Team CFC"

 

[cav scout]

Looks like you have duplicate paragraph 2's.

 

[Bowsling]

As well as two different Section 6's.

 

[2metraninja]

LOL, I dont know what happened with the copy/paste I did.

 

[classical_hero]

Section 1. Members of the Apolyton-CFC treaty

1.1. Team Apolyton

1.2. Team CFC

Section 2. Pact Duration and Terms

2.1. The pact cannot be cancelled before the beginning of turn 218.

2.2. The members of this pact cannot enter in to agreements with third parties which interfere to any of its clauses.

Section 3. Treaty Duration and Terms

3.1. The treaty cannot be cancelled before the beginning of turn 200.

3.2. The members of this treaty cannot enter into agreements with third parties which interfere to any of its clauses.

3.3. Both members of the treaty must adhere to all clauses together.

Section 4. Non-Aggression Pact

4.1. The members agree to not conduct actions which will lead to declaration of war between the members of this pact while this pact is in effect.

4.2. If any of the members is at war with third party, the other member agrees to not help/give aid to that third party.

4.2.1. Helping/Giving aid to a third party includes providing gold, gifting units, and giving intelligence information

4.3. Both members agree to consult with the other member before gifting military units to a third party, whether they are at war with a treaty member or not, for the duration of the pact.

Section 5. Open Borders

5.1. Both members agree to maintain an Open Borders treaty to facilitate trade and unit movement for the length of this pact.

Section 6. Espionage

6.1. Both members agree to not spend/gain espionage points against the other beyond the needed amount for seeing the graphs.

Section 7. Temporary Exceptions

7.1. Temporary exceptions can be made to the terms of the pact with the express agreement of both members. This is meant to allow either member to react to unforeseen circumstances or circumstances outside of their control.

Section 8. Amendments

8.1. A proposed amendment may be submitted by either member.

8.2. A proposed amendment will be adopted upon agreement of both members.


I just corrected the numbers and made some slight changes which I think make the document flow better. With 4.2 I just gave us the option to keep language clear, so we can either keep it to say the same as help or give aid, on of the two rather than having both. It just looks a bit more professional keeping the language the same. I also corrected cancelled, since it needed two l's instead of one, well my browser had it underlined showing the spelling mistake. Other than that it looks fine.

 

[SilentConfusion]

Just make sure it doesn't conflict with our agreement with other teams.

 

[2metraninja]

Thanks CH for clearing it all.

And you are absolutely right SC that we must decide if we consider our agreement with CP already in place, where we agree to attack common enemies. Maybe this is the time to try and re-word our agreement with CP to make it more like our other agreements?

 

[2metraninja]

Another chat with MZ. Seems Apolyton sees us as natural ally. Makes perfect sense btw. Our nations have no common borders, we played side by side and against each-other before with him and we trust each-other and know we are reasonable. Most important we are both interested to bring the leader down, so our own teams have better shot at the win.

MZprox: hi
2metraninja: hey
MZprox: is your war is over with the zulus?
2metraninja: not yet, but it turned in to cold war only
they cant win and we want to techa and develop instead of figth
MZprox: they have logged in after you.. I thought this mod would make that impossible
2metraninja: after us???
I think it is not possible
MZprox: civstat shows that
2metraninja: maybe it shows that they tried to connect, but then the mod kicks them
I know, as I played in the APT mod test game
MZprox: ok, maybe
MZprox: btw RB finished literature without losing money... so they got it just with 40-50% scienvce, now they are collecting money
they have the svendagon or what wonder, still no revolt in this turn
they probably want to finish something before they revolt
2metraninja: yes, we saw this and we suspect it is their first show of weakness
MZprox: I just hope maya will get music.. not that I like the maya too much.. they refused our proposal aswell.. we offered them a more than fair border treaty
their land size must be 2nd our is 6th
we are boxxed in one side and can not make fair agreement on the other because hey too want the same land
2metraninja: I hate land greedy bastards
2metraninja: have in mind CivFR have great amount of land towards Spaniards
Spaniards settled only towards us
all their cities except 1 are west of their capitol in our direction
and the city which is exception is settled north of their capitol
so not a single city in CivFR direction
MZprox: thx for the info, though now we fear that they will expand into our direction, just to grab as much land as possible.
btw
ask your team if you are interested in a map swap
2metraninja: you will have paper soon?
thats very interesting
MZprox: we don't want to trade maps with many civs so we would keep your map for a number of turns we agreed on
2metraninja: that is great idea. I think we will be all for it in the team
MZprox: if all goes well we will ahve it 4 turns, maybe 5
2metraninja: good, good

MZprox: i have a feeling cp will ahve paper sooner than us
2metraninja:
but how it is possible?
so they have CS?
MZprox: they have theology
and from that they can research paper
2metraninja: ah, right
I very very rarely go theology
until very late
MZprox: I wanted but aztec got it sooner
2metraninja: but what makes you think they will go paper/edu ?
MZprox: not education, just paper.. that's what I'd do in thier place
it's confidental info, hope you are not sharing this discussion with them
2metraninja: interesting...
of course not
MZprox: CP is slaving, but I think not soldiers, but monasteries and temples in every cities, they have the apostolic paalce, so that's +4 extra production/city
they also want the Sankore university for +4 science /city
that's why I think they go for paper. also they haven't got a new tech for several turns
MZprox: this i9nterest me only because I too want that wonder.. not because it's that great, but better than nothing
2metraninja: Sankore explains Paper, yes
btw, CP are good ally material I think
they are bordering RB and Ot4e knows the game very good. he is good at both development and war. exceptional player
also, very unorthodox
MZprox: who are ot4e?
2metraninja: not following the common paths
Ot4e is the mastermind of CivPlayers
Russian player from the Ladder
MZprox: ah, ok
I'm considering closing my borders with RB, but I will only do it if it has any effect. Right now they still have enough civs with open border
any chance you would close your borders too?
2metraninja: we have agreement for OB with them
till t175
thats why we hope they wont get TGLH
MZprox: if they get it we will close our borders anyway
2metraninja: yes, makes sense
they are not close to it at all, as we take notes of their production, but still
MZprox: they have it with zulu, wpc (who are afraid to close it), inca ( who are not even answering in diplo)
2metraninja: yes, they have OB with almost all
MZprox: no not all, only 5
if both of us closed it they would feel it

 

[YossarianLives]

Very interesting that the Spaniards logged in after us, especially seeing as how they found that short 24-hour period when we were playing without the APT mod. No wonder they use it in their own games to enforce double-move rules, they can't help themselves otherwise!

It's interesting that he says they don't like CivFr much. I had just mentioned how they're the only other two teams trading, which I thought signaled cooperation. I guess not so much...

Great job of mentioning the land CivFr has between them and the Spaniards, by the way. Very subtle, very nice.

Absolutely we should trade maps with them. Probably better for us to trade with them rather than CP, and it might be good if we can get locked into a deal where we can't trade with others for a little while. Gives us a good excuse if RB (or UCiv) comes knocking for a map trade later on.

Closing borders with RB is a non-starter. I'm pretty sure that our agreement with them includes OB through T175.