Foreign Policy: CivFr

[Sommerswerd]

Should we say something about it? I know we should not complain (smart guys dont lament), but the temptation to expose the French is so strong...

1. We can't say anything, it's poor sportsmanship to do so.
2. Admin already knows so who are we complaining to anyway?
3. We would look like whiny weaklings to complain aboutsuch a thing.
4. CivFr has already said (Inao) that they consider such conduct fair (which they obviously must do, since they accepted exactly these kinds of gifts from dying SpAp).

To me this is them being defensive about their conduct, because they expect complaints from us. Let's not get into this argument. Let the conduct speak for itself at the end of the game and let others judge for themselves.

It exactly this kind of public argument... "You cheated!... No I didn't!... Poor Sport!... No I'm No!... You abuse game mechanics!... No I don't!" that causes premature end of a game. Let's not be the ones to do this.

5. Most important IMO... Let's not get too self-righteous about this. Remember that we were asking SpAp to do to CivFr almost exactly the same as what they did to us. So really, we have no moral legs to stand on... Our hands are just as guilty... At least that is how some would see it... Some food for thought.

 

[2metraninja]

Yeah, I know all this

Still, good to hear it said out loud.

 

[Calis]

5. Most important IMO... Let's not get too self-righteous about this. Remember that we were asking SpAp to do to CivFr almost exactly the same as what they did to us. So really, we have no moral legs to stand on... Our hands are just as guilty... At least that is how some would see it... Some food for thought.

This was my first thought, when I read the ninja's statement.

 

[2metraninja]

Well, first of all, we had the moral right over their lands, as we fought wars and actually made efforts of capturing them, not like the French who had 5 horse archers at the time of declaration of war and wanted 3/4 of the zulu land.

Then once we were told by Plako it is not good thing, we never ever mentioned it again.

 

[YossarianLives]

Yes, I agree that it's best to keep quiet about it. The Zulu are gone, no point in complaining about what they did or didn't do.

As far as the message 2metra suggested in the other thread, about offering peace again, I think we may need to hold of until we are ready to resettle Nobambo at least, since it is possible they have a settler(s) ready to go in the area, and if we give them peace, they will settle all that land before we can get our own settler(s) in place.

Wow, that's a long run-on sentence!

 

[Bowsling]

Why don't we just make a border agreement part of the peace deal?

 

[YossarianLives]

Well, we have our answer finally.

It seems that you don't have realized some points: you have lost the game five turn ago. We don't stand that someone declare war on us without warning us and just after violating an agreement. Don't hope to obtain a peace by sending us such accusations, Zulus are the only master of their units. You can already forget about your last cities

 

[RegentMan]

Well, to the death it seems.

 

[Bowsling]

What is this in reply to? I think we need to cool this discussion down at some point and realize that these guys aren't gonna get pushed around like we thought.

 

[whb]

Does this mean that we still haven't told them that:

- We did not violate any agreement -- indeed we left the GM standing even though we were at war
- We didn't "declare war without warning" -- we declared in direct response to CivFR threatening to declare war on us.

 

[bistrita]

I might say i expected this, after theyd dont kep theyr part of trade ,after they manipulate zulu to let them having empty cities, after they rzing one of our cities they feel offended.Lets get a nap with rb so we can fight with frencies.The truth is: if we gave them what they want we will not matter in game, if we dont they will figh to the death so we will be finish not winning too, so the question ist which one we prefer?

 

[vranasm]

fight to death with french and give the win to RB...

they are just arrogant bastards and they should pay for it.

edit:

in fact I don't think we could do anything else they didn't listen to us before, why would they now?

it's questionable if RB will want NAP or will want some piece of our land... but I guess it will be pleasure for them to watch aside power 2 and 3 duke it out.

 

[classical_hero]

To get the point across we need to use their words against them. But not everyone has access to the team email and the diplo hasn't been updated. Basically we are at war because they treated us like fools. They wanted to get something for nothing and no way would anyone agree to that. Every time we made a proposal for a luxury trade we never heard back from them. Their actions are loud and clear from a long time ago, they never wanted to have anything to do with us and yet they constantly tried to bully us and they didn't expect to push back. Whatever we send to them we should end with saying that We refuse to talk.

 

[bistrita]

Completly agre with CH here.

 

[2metraninja]

It seems we stuck on irrational guys who dont care for winning.

I am already sad we tried to talk to them reasonable. They can call it "agreed deal" even after I told them we are not happy anymore with how they treat us and we need to renegotiate our deals. We expected they to offer us new terms for our deals and they came asking for 3/4 of our rightful war bounty threatened us with war... And now they are happy to tell us we lost the game?!? They will play to hurt our team even if they hurt themselves inevitably and drop chance for the win themselves? I am mad at those guys!

The one good thing I see in their reply is how they are convinced we will lose our "last" cities. If they have in mind our newly captured Zulu cities, they are mistaken a lot

As for what we do now, let me first speak with our allies tomorrow. And we must send message and start speaking a lot with Uciv. If we manage to bring Uciv on our side and they prepare army to neutralize threat from RB, we can have our 2-front war no problem I think.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Why don't we just make a border agreement part of the peace deal?

We did. They don't care or want a border deal. They want revenge on us.

Well, to the death it seems.

Yep I said as much like 10 turns ago

What is this in reply to? I think we need to cool this discussion down at some point and realize that these guys aren't gonna get pushed around like we thought.

There is no cooling down. It is war to the death. Anyway, it's not about us pushing them around, it's about them pushing us around... But it does not matter how we see it. The point is the time for talk is over. And TBH, given their message, and as some of us predicted, the time for talk was over as soon as we trapped their GM. It has made them our worst, hated enemies, just as predicted. Now we have no choice but to eliminate them if we want to stay in the game.

They are basically another SpAp "part deaux" just stronger and better

 

[Sommerswerd]

Does this mean that we still haven't told them that:

- We did not violate any agreement -- indeed we left the GM standing even though we were at war
- We didn't "declare war without warning" -- we declared in direct response to CivFR threatening to declare war on us.

I don't think any of this matters to them. We are not going to be able to convince them with words to just see things our way. So while I will love to discuss all the logic and reasoning (as you well know ) over who is right (out of CivFr and Us) and who violated what in this whole mess... I just don't think any of it will matter to CivFr. We can send them a detailed treatise on why they are in the wrong and we are in the right, or a lengthy apology explaining our feelings and how it all went sour but they are not going to give us a NAP, until we at least capture one of their cities... 10 beer bet

I might say i expected this, after theyd dont kep theyr part of trade ,after they manipulate zulu to let them having empty cities, after they rzing one of our cities they feel offended.Lets get a nap with rb so we can fight with frencies.The truth is: if we gave them what they want we will not matter in game, if we dont they will figh to the death so we will be finish not winning too, so the question ist which one we prefer?

I agree with most of that, and BTW, in this situation, I prefer to fight CivFr to the death anyway. I never felt that we would be able to trust a NAP with them after what we did to their GM.

But I also prefer not to give RB a NAP. I think we can do both, as long as Poly and CP are committed to it.

Maybe we can get Poly to agree to attack CivFr after their NAP ends too ?

 

[2metraninja]

I don't think any of this matters to them. We are not going to be able to convince them with words to just see things our way.

Doesnt matter. I think we will lose nothing from talking to them and trying to bring them feel not so convinced we did something scandalous and that we are the worst possible people. I already have a plan what to say to them. Seems they do care for feelings and we must aim there.

If nothing else, this will make them think of us as scared and not ready to fight.

 

[Sommerswerd]

it's questionable if RB will want NAP or will want some piece of our land... but I guess it will be pleasure for them to watch aside power 2 and 3 duke it out.

RB does not want a NAP (not that I want to ask them for one anyway) because they are thinking that they will be able to take advantage of our little mess we are in with CivFr. CivFr is thinking the same, which is why they refuse Peace.

They will play to hurt our team even if they hurt themselves inevitably and drop chance for the win themselves? I am mad at those guys!

It is as was predicted. They feel that we are the worst enemy and they will kill us no matter the cost. Their message reminds me of Blubmuz... "Prepare to be wiped" I think we should send them a provocative message:

CivFr Enemies,

It seems that you are the ones who don't realize the facts...

That message was your last chance. We never really wanted any peace with you but the soft- hearted ones on our team forced us to send one last offer of peace to you. The truth is that we already planned your doom many turns ago. You have given us the excuse to invade your puny lands and finish you off for good.

Don't bother sending any more letters to us. We will negotiate with your orphans after all you able bodied man woman and children are impaled on spikes. It was a pleasure playing the game with you. Any of your players can feel free to join our team after you have been eliminated.

CFC

How's that for a response?

we can have our 2-front war no problem I think.

That's the spirit I like to hear that!

 

[Sommerswerd]

If nothing else, this will make them think of us as scared and not ready to fight.

Exact opposite is what we must do. More Poker strategy here... If we pretend to be weak they will interpret that as a bluff. They will assume we are truly strong and will be well prepared. If we talk tough they will conclude that it is a bluff and they will assume we are clowns and underestimate us... Which is what I think you want right General?