Foreign Policy: CivFr

[2metraninja]

That is basically telling us we are to be their and give what they demand.

Exactly! We must tell them we were outraged by them not coming and proposing us to be our allies, but telling us what they will take no matter if we agree or not and then threaten us with war if we dont give to their DEMANDS!

 

[2metraninja]

Oh, dear.. I will go to do something else, because if I stay any longer and think about it, I will write them such a letter, they wont think of speaking to us ever again...

 

[Sommerswerd]

It is good message as normally, Sommers (many times they are great LOL). I want to change few things in it - more like include 1-2 more details like their INCREASED DEMANDS the second time they threatened us with war in their mail. They said they want 2 more city spots just between the cities they graciously left for us to keep And will change CivFR typo around the middle of the message with SpAp.

That is all very well, please make whatever changes you want so we can send it and be done with this.

Oh, dear.. I will go to do something else, because if I stay any longer and think about it, I will write them such a letter, they wont think of speaking to us ever again...

Please just finish the changes you want and send the letter to them so we can be finished with this. It is becoming even more of a big waste of time than it already was.

 

[Aivoturso]

If we plan seriously to discuss peace, we should not be so accusatory. We should rather point out a misunderstanding instead of saying "you are wrong". At the same time we should not bow out but insist on our rights to Zulu land. Here is my edit aimed more to that purpose:

Dear CivFr,

We must respond to you on a few points that you are mistaken aboutwe see completely differently. There was no agreed deal as you say, so we can not be guilty of breaking any deal. Our original deal was that you would send a Great Merchant to us and we would send a Great Merchant to you at around the same time. We were hoping to get a Great Merchant very soon at the time, so it was a good deal for both of us. But then we did not get a Great Merchant, we got a Great Engineer instead.

Once we did not get the Great Merchant as planned and wanted, there was no more deal it is obvious that the exchange of the merchant missions could not happen. We told you this clearly, well in advance, and we told you that we needed to come to a new agreement. We asked you to trade with us for wines, and we offered to pay gold to you in addition to giving you a resource. You refused to make any resource deal with us. You also did not make any sort of counter offer.

All this time we were planning to invade SpAp Zulus. As you know, they attacked us earlier, and harmed our economy and development. We put together the needed forces and then we invaded them. All this money spent and cities whipped in order to fight against a neighbor who threatened us. Then you come along ans say that you will be taking over 3/4 of the Zululands. You also made some threats that you would make War on us if we did not agree. What you said specifically was that we should be aware of what you were taking so there would not be a War.

Of course this is the same as a threat to make War if we don't agree to what you want. But what was the most unfair was that you had no Army at the time and you had made a deal with SpAp that they would gift you their cities as they were being eliminated. You expected us to do the fighting against CivFr, while you just got the cities gifted to youjust pick whatever cites you like after the heavy fighing is done. How can you think we would agree to this? So you refuse to come to a deal about the Great Merchant, you refuse to trade any resource with us, you refuse to give us a NAP, and then the final insult, is you try to take all of the spoils of War without doing any fighting.

And in response to all these insults against us, all we did was trap your Great Merchant. We did not destroy him, as we could have, all we did was keep him from finishing the trade mission so that we could discuss the situation. And we declared War to show you that we were serious. But still we did not kill the Great Merchant, and if you had just talked to us we would have come to a deal and let the mission be completed. But you just used him for a Golden Age instead of saying anything to us.

Now you say you are convinced we will lose our "last" cities. Do you have in mind our newly captured Zulu cities, or are you saying that you intend to invade our homeland and take all our cities? We will negotiate for the Zulu lands, but we will defend our homeland to our last breath. We do not look forward to fighting you. We are willing to negotiate peace but if there is ever to be a lasting peace it is clear that the relationships in future need to be straigthforward and mutually beneficial.

We are sorry that you felt compelled to use your Great Merchant for a Golden Age due to lack of clear communication between our teams. If you feel that you need to be compenstated for the loss, we can discuss about that. Sharing of the land between old Zululand and your borders can also be negotiated. But the Zulu land we have won with our own blood and tears, we will not surrender as easily as you apparently wished. We are still open to peace negotiations but that requires good will from both parties. We do not wish this war between you, but if you do not feel that mutually beneficial co-operation between our teams is not possible, we are prepared to defend our lands.

We have remained willing to have peaceful and fair relations between us and we still feel this way. You are the ones who are being unfair and violating the spirit of our agreements. In a true fair agreement, both sides should be getting some benefits.

Signed

Team CFC

 

[Sommerswerd]

If 2metra is fine with your edits, I say send it.

If 2metra wants to stick with the accusatory tone of the first draft and just put his edits, I say fine, send that.

Or we can just send both.... Seriously... I would rather send both right now than wait another day deciding on the words, because I am quite certain that this letter, regardless of the wording, has no effect whatsoever on CivFr.

The purpose of this letter is to get it off our (2metra's) chest so we can focus on the War effort. Peace is not the goal, because they are not giving us peace.

 

[2metraninja]

yes, let us release this and make them feel guilt even if a bit for the war. They will feel guilt and sorry when they taste the defeat, be sure of that

 

[bistrita]

I agree with sommer her so sent both and after sent one and ask them to pick whatever they like.

 

[Maga_R]

I agree with sommer her so sent both and after sent one and ask them to pick whatever they like.

with Sommers and everybody: let us send whatever 2metra thinks is best and forget about it and focus and fighting the French in the battlefield.

 

[classical_hero]

But if we are going to send both, then it shows we are team divided. just send the revised letter and see what happens. I am going to predict that it will be pointless trying to negotiate with them based on their previous behaviour.

 

[Aivoturso]

IMO, the point is not so much to get them to suddenly change their opinion on us, but to show that the door to peace is not closed forever. When the war turns out ugly for them or when the cost of attrition just gets too high, they are more likely to sue for peace if they don't think that all the bridges have been burned already.

 

[2metraninja]

IMO, the point is not so much to get them to suddenly change their opinion on us, but to show that the door to peace is not closed forever. When the war turns out ugly for them or when the cost of attrition just gets too high, they are more likely to sue for peace if they don't think that all the bridges have been burned already.

Great formulated, Aivo!

 

[Maga_R]

Great formulated, Aivo!

Guys, just send it, enough talking

 

[Sommerswerd]

 

[vranasm]

I like Aivo's message better, but please for the love of god...fix the typo...

here "You expected us to do the fighting against CivFr, while you just" clearly should be SpApp instead of CivFr...

we don't want to send them mail that at some points doesn't make sense.

 

[2metraninja]

OK, this is what I came to using parts and structure from both drafts.

Haha, guys, please, dont play it pinched maid.

We must respond to you on a few points that we see completely differently.

There was no agreed deal for the GM as you say, so we can not be guilty of breaking it. What you initially said to us was that you hope we can work good together, mentioned friendship, going far if we cooperate and so on. In the spirit of these words we said we will have nothing against if you send your GM to our capitol and we said we will want to send our GM to your lands too and we said we want to trade for resources, to which you said: "but of course, between friends all is allowed". You even ask us for a map trade and when we proposed in-game, you never agreed on this map exchange. Why you make proposal and then refuse it? Since then, we asked you for fair trade few times. First it was OK our teams to trade, then you said gems are more valuable than wines, because they give happy with forge. OK, we offered you gpt beside the wines and you never commented on this deal, which we saw as you dont want to trade with us, as you do not gave us price or explanation why our trade can not be done. When we pushed for it again because then we need it, all you said after many turns silence is that you are not interested anymore in trade, because you dont need our wines at that time and will only trade your gems for gold per turn. We asked you to give us price for your gems in gold per turn and tell you that by the same logic we dont need your GM anymore, because we dont have a GM on our own to make trade mission in your lands and we want you to come with an offer for us regarding the gems and the GM trade mission. To which you say you will talk in the team and tell us what you think. The next thing we receive from you instead of giving us any reasonable offer for trade, you come and tell us that you will take half of the Zulu cities and most of the free land and threaten us with war, Not coming and offering us friendship and help against Zulus, but coming to tell us what you will take with the lame excuse "we were planning to attack Zulus from long ago" LOL, come on guys, we've been in war with Zulus for 40 turns already and you never mention you plan to fight Zulus too. And once we invade Zulu with serious army, you out of a sudden remember you wanted to take the bigger part of Zululand?!?

While we discuss in our team how to handle this sudden change of your attitude, we receive a mail, in which you repeat your threats for war and increase your demands telling us you will even settle 2 more cities, just to be sure we will not get any free land to settle and we get only the 4 cities you think we deserve for fighting Zulus for 40 turns, where you take 3 cities and land for 8-10 more.

You expected us to do the fighting against Zulu army, while you just pick whatever cites and land you like after the heavy fighting is done? And dont make the efforts telling us how Zulu units were only theirs to command, we have mail from Spaniards with the offer to take what you want in exchange for your help. How can you think we would agree to this? So you refuse to discuss deals with us, you refuse to trade any resource with us, you refuse to give us a NAP which we asked way before all this Zulu war started, and then the final insult is you try to take most of the spoils of War which we fought hard for? How you expected us to react? But tell us honestly. Put your left hand on your heart and write with the right only

In response to all these insults, you can easily see how declaring you a war is the only thing we could do to make you see we are serious and we intend to take and defend what we believe is ours. We did not even killed your GM as we could had easily.

Now you say you are convinced we lost the game and will lose our "last" cities. We do not know for which cities you talk about, but you are welcome to try it. We are not irrationally inclined to fighting you or making vendetta because you razed our city, but we will not make it any easy for you to fight us anymore if this is what you want.


Anyway, enough for what already happened, maybe there will be a point in the future where you are willing to negotiate but for you it must be clear that those must be reasonable negotiations with fair deals and not only speaking vague about strength in future between us while having only demands from us and acting hostile.

Changed it a bit

 

[2metraninja]

As it was to release what is on my chest, I am sending it in short.

 

[Maga_R]

As it was to release what is on my chest, I am sending it in short.

Great.

 

[2metraninja]

And will sign it with my nick, let them know it is personal.

 

[2metraninja]

Final version I sent:

CivFanatics Team <diplo.civfanatics@gmail.com> (sent by dimo.neykov@gmail.com)

1:09 PM (0 minutes ago)

to Pascal
Haha, guys, please, just dont play it pinched maids.

I must respond to you on a few points that we see completely differently as it seems from your last letter.

There was no agreed deal for the GM as you say, so we can not be guilty of breaking it. What you initially said to us was that you hope we can work good together, mentioned friendship, going far if we cooperate and so on. In the spirit of these words we said we have nothing against if you send your GM to our capitol and we said we will want to send our GM to your lands too and we said we want to trade for resources, to which you said: "but of course, between friends all is allowed". You even ask us for a map trade and when we proposed in-game, you never agreed on this map exchange. Why you make proposal and then refuse it? This must have alarmed us back then. Since then, we asked you for fair trade few times. First you say you welcome fair trades, then you said gems are more valuable than wines, because they give happy with forge. OK, we offered you gpt beside the wines without mentioning that wines give health with grocers for example. But you never commented on this deal, which we saw as you dont want to trade with us, as you do not gave us price or explanation why our trade can not be done. When we pushed for it again because then we needed it, all you said after many turns silence is that you are not interested anymore in trade, because you dont need our wines at that time and will only trade your gems for gold per turn. We asked you to give us price for your gems in gold per turn and tell you that by the same logic we dont need your GM anymore, because we dont have a GM on our own to make trade mission in your lands and we want you to come with an offer for us regarding the gems and the GM trade mission. To which you say you will talk in the team and tell us what you think. But the next thing we receive from you instead of giving us any reasonable offer for trade, you come and tell us that you will take half of the Zulu cities and most of the free land and threaten us with war, Not coming and offering us friendship and help against Zulus, but coming to tell us what you will take with the lame excuse "we were planning to attack Zulus from long ago" LOL, come on guys, we've been in war with Zulus for 40 turns already and you never mention you plan to fight Zulus too. And once we invade Zulu with serious army, you out of a sudden remember you wanted to take the bigger part of Zululand?!?

While we discuss in our team how to handle this sudden change of your attitude, we receive a mail, in which you repeat your threats for war and increase your demands telling us you will even settle 2 more cities, just to be sure we will not get any free land to settle and we get only the 4 cities you think we deserve for fighting Zulus for 40 turns, where you take 3 cities and land for 8-10 more.

You expected us to do the fighting against Zulu army, while you just pick whatever cites and land you like after the heavy fighting is done? And dont make the efforts telling us how Zulu units were only theirs to command, we have mail from Spaniards with the offer to take what you want in exchange for your help. How can you think we would agree to this? So you refuse to discuss deals with us, you refuse to trade any resource with us, you refuse to give us a NAP which we asked way before all this Zulu war started, and then the final insult is you try to take most of the spoils of War which we fought hard for? How you expected us to react? But tell us honestly. Put your left hand on your heart and write with the right only

In response to all these insults, you can easily see how we spared you what we think about the situation and declaring you a war is the only thing we could do to make you see we are serious, we wont give in to threats and we intend to take and defend what we believe is ours. Note, we did not even killed your GM as we could had easily.

Now you say you are convinced we lost the game and will lose our "last" cities. We do not know for which cities you talk about, but you are welcome to try it. We are not irrationally inclined to fighting you or making vendetta because you razed our city while we were trying to negotiate peace after the zulus are no more, but we will not make it any easy for you to fight us anymore if this is what you want.


Anyway, enough for what already happened, maybe there will be a point in the future where we and you are willing to negotiate but for you it must be clear that those must be reasonable negotiations with fair deals and not only speaking vague about "strength in future between us" while having only demands from us and acting arrogant and hostile.

2metraninja,
Team CFC Captain

 

[classical_hero]

Excellent.