YossarianLives
Deity
I have a better idea. They obviously want marble for MoM. We should promise them free marble for ten turns if they start the stone gift immediately. Then delay hooking it up until after they complete or lose MoM.
Foreign Policy: RealmsBeyond
- Thread starter talonschild
- Start date
Caledorn
Emperor
YossarianLives
Deity
Cal and I are chatting about this. If Uciv actually ended up with the marble city in their hands, that would actually be a great dual-excuse to DOW UCiv and never end up giving RB the marble (or at least not in a timely fashion)
cav scout
The Continuum
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2008
- Messages
- 2,630
Ok, I think we have them where we need to be for the next step.
I don't believe they actually aren't using the stone right now. They just don't like the prospect of giving up a resource until they hook the new stone up. But more importantly they want to see how pissed we really are over their agressive city move. If we back down on the stone they will know we don't want to push our luck and we aren't upset enough to cause them problems. If we stand our ground I am confident we will get the stone. They don't want us as a wild card right now and they really want to lock that NAP.
About the marble... if we agree to give it to them it should probably be a honest offer. If we intentionally drag our feet on hooking it up they can hold that over our head and even use it as an excuse for breaking the NAP. I think we can agree as long as we let them know it won't be hooked up for a while but when we do hook it up they can have the first 10 turns.
I don't believe they actually aren't using the stone right now. They just don't like the prospect of giving up a resource until they hook the new stone up. But more importantly they want to see how pissed we really are over their agressive city move. If we back down on the stone they will know we don't want to push our luck and we aren't upset enough to cause them problems. If we stand our ground I am confident we will get the stone. They don't want us as a wild card right now and they really want to lock that NAP.
About the marble... if we agree to give it to them it should probably be a honest offer. If we intentionally drag our feet on hooking it up they can hold that over our head and even use it as an excuse for breaking the NAP. I think we can agree as long as we let them know it won't be hooked up for a while but when we do hook it up they can have the first 10 turns.
cav scout
The Continuum
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2008
- Messages
- 2,630
You know the more I think about it I think that we should be non-commital on the marble. First they steal our city spot for the small price of 2 excess resources... then they parley that into a deal where they get a resource they don't have but desperately need? Seriously?
We should tell them that we are absolutely open to letting them use it but we honestly can't given them a solid timeline for when we will have it in our boundaries. Let them know they will be our prefered trading partners etc etc but don't make any promises on the marble.
These guys are wanting the NAP and the security it provides them. They don't want us as a wild card. So they need to cough up stone and spices for the duration. period. Otherwise F' em.
We should tell them that we are absolutely open to letting them use it but we honestly can't given them a solid timeline for when we will have it in our boundaries. Let them know they will be our prefered trading partners etc etc but don't make any promises on the marble.
These guys are wanting the NAP and the security it provides them. They don't want us as a wild card. So they need to cough up stone and spices for the duration. period. Otherwise F' em.
Caledorn
Emperor
You're saying it harsher than me (which is not a surprise of course
), but yes - this is exactly what I think as well. I have no idea when the marble city is planned to be incorporated in our city network (do we even have a time frame for that?). I would respond to them that we have no problems letting them trade marble from us if we get it into our trade network, but that we am not sure when we intend to hook it up so we cannot make a promise for when it will be available. If they question that, I would respond that there are several other locations we believe better settling locations than the marble right now.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
This actually is one very good idea to know what they are trying to build. But what if they tell us they want to build ALL of the stone wonders? They might even dont need to lie to us - they will just need to put all those wonders in building queues before answering us, being it in a city size1 with 1 hammer per turn. Still they are building it and they have intention to build it, so we cant even try to build it if we dont want to break our word.
What is my thinking: If they are building a given wonder, they are already somewhat ahead of us on it, so with or without stone, we wont get it before them if it is not THEIR ONLY STONE handled to us. To add to this, if they feel we can get it before them, they simply wont give us this stone on any condition and will just postpone accepting the NAP with those 5-6 turns they need to pop their culture in A1 before agreeing to our terms, even further delaying the gift with saying they dont have workers to improve and gift us Stone and so on. And even if we make inhuman efforts and be somehow able to build that wonder before RB without stone, by asking them now what is this wonder, we tie our own hands by promising to not build it. By this time, we might be lost the race already, but at least we wont be promised anything. Also, please note that we are not suited to start building a wonder with serious efficiency/chance of success in the next 4-5-6 turns or even more anyway. We need to know when we will have this stone and plan few turns ahead - moving workers for pre-chops, growing city/cities for whips for overflow, etc, etc, even planting a new city in forested area and spreading Judaism there to get the wonder done with minimal investment.
So, to summarize, I dont think we must push them for the stone. We wont get it and steal a wonder from them. Most thing we can do is to ask them when their border pop and decide if it is worth we to send there workers to road the tile the turn before and then gift them those workers for 2-3 turns or whatever to speed up hooking the stone. If we believe them enough they will return them after the job is done of course
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
I dont like lying on small scale. Not that they did not do that to us first, but still, we are better than them and also, we dont want to "spend our bullets" for such minor thing. This means we will give them notice in advance that we dont want to play fair with them, just as they did that to us by settling A1 despite we told them our preferred city locations.
As I said in the previous post, we dont really need the Stone for 4-5-6 more turns and if we put such condition (stone right now if you want the marble) we will be in lose-lose situation. If they agree, we get Stone to use it for nothing (well, maybe start on Pyramids in Teras), but we are already promised to make their life easier by gifting them Marble (not only MoM, but TGLib too they will try to obtain). And if they dont agree, we are risking compromising a deal we wanted so badly, we almost fought ourselves to be sure we are proposing it the right way.
There is a saying we have here... Casinos all over the world have made trillions off...
People who press their luck
Let's not press our luck here. Especially since as 2 metra says, we can't beat them to the Wonder they are building anyway, and we can't start our own Wonders in 4-6 turns.
I would rather ask them outright to tell us what Wonder they want most and tell them what wonder we want most in return and promise not to compete with each other. Maybe even pick a few Wonders that we wont compete on. (I want TGW if that is not already clear to everyone
)
Just to be clear, what I think Caledorn has said in the chat is perfect and also notice that Scooter leaves open the possibility of them getting the Stone to us sooner.
What we want in our NAP with them is we have a NAP to turn 175 and that they give us Stone and Spice for the whole NAP.
As a side deal, we agree to give them Marble when they need it as long as we arent using it ourselves. We do not agree to promise to build a city for Marble in 10 turns because it is not the best available, but we will build it soon.
We also should tell them we need the Stone in 4 (6?) turns and tell them explicitly that we want to build a Wonder (or even better... start a Wonder now and tell them we are already building a Wonder maybe start both Mids and TGW and tell them so and let them know we will cancel the one that they pick). Tell them that we are willing to send a worker (or workers) to help hook it up faster. Tell them that we assume that they are already building a Wonder as well and we are willing to promise not to compete if they are willing to do the same.
Suggest that we each pick Wonders that we want and the other promises not to compete on, with the understanding that there can be no exceptions. Wonders you are currently building that the other picks must be stopped, and other Civs besides the two of us stealing the Wonders is just too bad for the one who picked that Wonder (you dont get to pick extra). Also, suggest that they pick first. Obviously they will pick whatever they are building with the Stone now (probably Mids), then we can pick whatever we want, obviously I want TGW, but we can pick MoM or GLib or whatever we want, then they pick, and so on.
Last thing is to tell them that
ones on the team.
What we want in our NAP with them is we have a NAP to turn 175 and that they give us Stone and Spice for the whole NAP.
As a side deal, we agree to give them Marble when they need it as long as we arent using it ourselves. We do not agree to promise to build a city for Marble in 10 turns because it is not the best available, but we will build it soon.
We also should tell them we need the Stone in 4 (6?) turns and tell them explicitly that we want to build a Wonder (or even better... start a Wonder now and tell them we are already building a Wonder maybe start both Mids and TGW and tell them so and let them know we will cancel the one that they pick). Tell them that we are willing to send a worker (or workers) to help hook it up faster. Tell them that we assume that they are already building a Wonder as well and we are willing to promise not to compete if they are willing to do the same.
Suggest that we each pick Wonders that we want and the other promises not to compete on, with the understanding that there can be no exceptions. Wonders you are currently building that the other picks must be stopped, and other Civs besides the two of us stealing the Wonders is just too bad for the one who picked that Wonder (you dont get to pick extra). Also, suggest that they pick first. Obviously they will pick whatever they are building with the Stone now (probably Mids), then we can pick whatever we want, obviously I want TGW, but we can pick MoM or GLib or whatever we want, then they pick, and so on.
Last thing is to tell them that
This way we cover ourselves but blame it on the "obviously wrong" crazy paranoid"On the off chance that the 10 turn delay is a gambit to quickly grab multiple Wonders "as the paranoid conspiracy theorists on our team have suggested"
ones on the team.
SilentConfusion
Emperor
There is a saying we have here... Casinos all over the world have made trillions off...
People who press their luck
Let's not press our luck here. Especially since as 2 metra says, we can't beat them to the Wonder they are building anyway, and we can't start our own Wonders in 4-6 turns.
I would rather ask them outright to tell us what Wonder they want most and tell them what wonder we want most in return and promise not to compete with each other. Maybe even pick a few Wonders that we wont compete on. (I want TGW if that is not already clear to everyone
I agree about not pressing. And this is a better way to ask them about there wonders. Here we are asking which Wonder they want most instead of which wonders are you building. There answer should be a single wonder instead of a string of wonders.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
We will need Marble ourselves in about 15-20 turns from now and we will need it badly. If we lose it to Uciv, we are threatening to compromise the long-term strategy I am developing for some time in my head and setting things for it.
Little lyrical detour here:
As for long-term strategy, I was afraid to bring it yet to the team, because despite I knew Plako is to be trusted and still I had small doubts he might unintentionally slip a single "yes" or "no" to his fellow RB comrades in unofficial talk about the game and this to have huge impacts on our plans, but lately I got assurances from a player I trust a lot that Plako is discreet and careful to not slip anything as humanly possible and for me this is enough.
So, we will need Marble ourselves for National Epic for sure. National Epic is crucial part of the strategy I am thinking about. Actually they are more like 5-6 strategies with quite deviations, but they all (except maybe 1) require we to have Marble in the next 15-20 turns.
I will present the guidelines of the strategies I am thinking about these days to the team.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
All but the last F'em I agree with.
About the Marble, we must tell them we are not sure when and if at all will get the Marble because it is between us and Uciv, then we will need it for our projects too. RB are our preferred trade partners and if/when we can, we will of course give them marble.
YossarianLives
Deity
My take on the situation is that RB's arrogance will mean that they decline this "wonder reservation" agreement. They believe they can beat us to any wonder they want using their better abilities, so they don't need to make a reservation, and they don't want to give us the ability to deny them a wonder just by naming it.
I could be wrong, though.
I could be wrong, though.
Hmm even if we make the NAP conditional on the Wonder reservation?
Anyway, my understanding from what 2metra has said is that we dont NEED any of the stone wonders, we want it mostly for Moais and such.
My main thing is I want that happy resourse and free stone. Seems like we have that, so unless we are intent on getting a Stone Wonder right away I don't see the benefit of holding up the deal.
I agree that we should give them no commitment on Marble... Certainly not as part of the NAP.
Anyway, my understanding from what 2metra has said is that we dont NEED any of the stone wonders, we want it mostly for Moais and such.
My main thing is I want that happy resourse and free stone. Seems like we have that, so unless we are intent on getting a Stone Wonder right away I don't see the benefit of holding up the deal.
I agree that we should give them no commitment on Marble... Certainly not as part of the NAP.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Good cop, bad/insane cop is good game, I like it a lot too and was planning to propose it if they dont want to give us stone and blame on the crazy people in the tema who want jihad on them for it on t130Just to be clear, what I think Caledorn has said in the chat is perfect and also notice that Scooter leaves open the possibility of them getting the Stone to us sooner.
What we want in our NAP with them is we have a NAP to turn 175 and that they give us Stone and Spice for the whole NAP. Correct. This must be settled and not questioned further. All other deals must be on their own and the NAP and 2 resources dont depend on that.
As a side deal, we agree to give them Marble when they need it as long as we arent using it ourselves. We do not agree to promise to build a city for Marble in 10 turns because it is not the best available, but we will build it soon. That is very good formulated. All uncertainties are in our favor. So we can decide timing, availability, etc.
We also should tell them we need the Stone in 4 (6?) turns and tell them explicitly that we want to build a Wonder (or even better... start a Wonder now and tell them we are already building a Wonder maybe start both Mids and TGW and tell them so and let them know we will cancel the one that they pick). Tell them that we are willing to send a worker (or workers) to help hook it up faster. We must check if we will be able to do so. We must not stagnate/mess with our other plans only to get stone quicker if we wont use it or if we can plan things to not make their life easier. What turn they settled A1? If it is 3-4 turns from then, 10 turns till we get the Stone is not that long at all! And we will save ourselves 8 or so workerturns. Ask them for specific date when the stone will be gift to us and dont mention our workers at all. After we know their promised date and we decide on wonder plans, we can decide is it worth we to send workers.Tell them that we assume that they are already building a Wonder as well and we are willing to promise not to compete if they are willing to do the same. Thats good idea. But what if they are not building Stone Wonder at all and they simply dont want to give us the stone just to have the last word in an argument?
Suggest that we each pick Wonders that we want and the other promises not to compete on, with the understanding that there can be no exceptions. Wonders you are currently building that the other picks must be stopped, and other Civs besides the two of us stealing the Wonders is just too bad for the one who picked that Wonder (you dont get to pick extra). Also, suggest that they pick first. Obviously they will pick whatever they are building with the Stone now (probably Mids), then we can pick whatever we want, obviously I want TGW, but we can pick MoM or GLib or whatever we want, then they pick, and so on. I am sure they will push for MoM. the MoM path is strong and they are already on it.
Last thing is to tell them thatThis way we cover ourselves but blame it on the "obviously wrong" crazy paranoid
Maybe it is not a good time to use it now, "wasting our bullets". I dont know...Similar threads
