Foreign Policy: RealmsBeyond

[Sommerswerd]

Fort Alamo of the Germans fell.

Someone give background about Fort Alamo? I think it is a fort where the few US soldiers fought overwhelming Mexican army and died with honor? It fits the current situation.

Hehe... I forgot about this... Post #156

Destiny of Empires Story Thread 11

Maybe you will remember the good old days

 

[Sommerswerd]

Also, Pee Wee Herman fans will know that the Alamo has no basement

Love it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYfjq3ZYZbA

I must have watched this movie over 200 times (no joke, literally) I know it word for word and can recit the whole script from memory including music and sound effects. Family went on a cross-county trip in an RV and left the box of VHS at home by accident . So the only movies we brought with us was one VHS with Back to the Future and... You guessed it... Pee Wee's big adventure. There was no mobile cable or internet back then so all we had to watch for 1 month was those two movies

And I think chatting with Scooter is fine, albeit a little dangerous as he will just keep fishing for info about whether we are allied with CivFr or not, and keep trying to get incriminating statements from you to go give to CivFr to "turn them against us"

Actually, maybe the best tac to take with them might be to adamantly deny that the CivFr War is phoney, and to insist that we intend to march straight through CivFr lands and take all their cites... Maybe even "estimate that it will take us until at least turn 220 or so to finish off CivFr before we can be bothered attacking you (RB). So you guys are safe for now." Then you can wink at them.

 

[2metraninja]

Yep, the good 'ol days.

Remember Captain, we've been in way worse situations - The Oasis hill and the Egypt betrayal, the Damascus desperate defense, France and Germany not giving us even the simplest Cease-fire, what to speak about NAP.... and still won at the end, so no need to despair.

 

[bistrita]

rb nice army stack

 

[YossarianLives]

Chat with Scooter:

YossarianLives: So, did you find a basement?
Sent at 3:23 PM on Saturday
YossarianLives: Hi Scooter
Scooter: hey Yossarian
YossarianLives: You let me down. I told the team we could count on your support against the French
And then you go and DOW the Germans instead
Sent at 8:08 AM on Monday
Scooter: Misclick of course
YossarianLives: Oh good, that's easily remedied!
Scooter: you guys sure aren't wasting any time with the zulu. Not that I'm surprised, but still, nicely done and all that
YossarianLives: Well, I don't know if you've heard what they're doing with those elephants they're getting from you, but they sure aren't riding them into war
Sent at 8:10 AM on Monday
YossarianLives: I'm looking forward to reading their messages to you after this game is all over. Their emails to us are worth a good chuckle
Scooter: Heh, yeah they're a pretty backwards team. Apparently Boudica is a bad economic leader, go figure
YossarianLives: Do you log into the game yourself at all? Waiting on the other team during times of war can be excruciating
Scooter: oh I know hah. they're funny. Not super frequent, but whenthey come they make me laugh
YossarianLives: And going up against the Germans? That's just masochistic
Scooter: I've only logged in a few times, the screenshots are frequent enough that I don't need to.
and yeah, being locked out while the other team is playing is annoying. Refreshing civstats over and over more or less
YossarianLives: btw, did you keep the Alamo or raze it?
Well, if their last war is any indication, you don't need to refresh CivStats too often. Just wait for their timer to run out
Scooter: I"d think you'd be able to tell in-game? We razed it. and they seem to be ending turns now, so that's refreshing
not super fast, but they ended after a reasonable amount of time last turn
YossarianLives: How come? Surely you weren't worried you couldn't keep it?
Sent at 8:14 AM on Monday
Scooter: their dotmap is... not all that good in a few spots
Sent at 8:15 AM on Monday
Scooter: so are you still going to insist on not telling me why you declared war on one of the strongest teams in the game?
or are you just playing hard to get? haha
YossarianLives: Have you asked them yet?
Scooter: Hah, I asked first
Sent at 8:19 AM on Monday
YossarianLives: Alright, alright, if you keep insisting, I will go back and ask the team how much info I can divulge about that war
But I will say this. They are definitely not one of the strongest teams in the game, at least not soldier-wise
Scooter: Hah, ok, fair enough.
and maybe not in current soldier counts, but in potential they're right there. but I see what you mean
Sent at 8:22 AM on Monday
YossarianLives: So wouldn't that be the best time to make our move? Before the potential is realized
Instead of giving them 25-30 turns to prepare
Scooter: You can do whatever you'd like. But there's no way I'll believe you'll send your army marching into CivFr knowing that your NAP with us expires in less than 25T
that would be pretty interesting if you did though. Much popcorn would be eaten at RB
YossarianLives: Well like I said, we're most likely not going to sign another NAP extension that doesn't have anything in it for us. We know how this game works. If you get a NAP and all the German lands, you'll just sit back and build up to a victory
We need something to sweeten the deal for us if we're going to consider it
Scooter: Probably not happening, so don't get your hopes up too high
YossarianLives: Did you get my message the other day? Not a Pee Wee fan?
Ok, well that's good to know then
Scooter: your message?
YossarianLives: I just asked if you found a basement
Scooter: oh. man the new gmail chat is obnoxious, I have no idea why it didnt show that to me
but I don't get the reference
YossarianLives: But if you're so keen on a NAP, I'm just trying to say it wouldn't be impossible. You just have to work with us. We can't give you this game on a silver platter. But we don't have a problem continuing to work with your team if it's also in our interest
Regarding your conquest of the Alamo. There's a bike down in the basement,
Scooter: and by "probably not happening" - I just mean don't expect some crazy offer involving us gifting you land or something in exchange for a NAP anytime soon. I don't think a NAP is impossible, but I suspect you would want more than we would give. but you've never asked either, so I wouldn't know for sure
that's fair enough. I just get the impression you don't know what would be worth a NAP extension to you. maybe I'm wrong, I don't know
YossarianLives: Well, my negotiating tactic has been to try to get you to put something on the table first
Sent at 8:31 AM on Monday
YossarianLives: But off the top of my head (and without discussing it with the team), ideally something that comes to mind is help with research (a significant GPT or arrangement to let us steal your techs)
Sent at 8:33 AM on Monday
YossarianLives: Ideally, we would get some land that is by all rights closer to our capital than yours, which we told you we intended to settle and tried to make an equitable land split agreement before you secretly sent settlers there, but it sounds like you just said you wouldn't agree to that
Scooter: haha wait, where did we secretly send settlers?
YossarianLives: Bygones and whatnot. None of the team has mentioned it since it happened. But personally I was very upset when you took the stone spot
Scooter: How so? it was a spot up for grabs, and we just happened to get there first. We definitely didn't violate anything that was agreed on
Sent at 8:36 AM on Monday
YossarianLives: No, nothing had been agreed to, but we brought it up once or twice and you said you weren't ready to talk about land splits because you hadn't explored the area yet. We told you to come back to us when you were ready to talk about it. And then next thing we know you have a city settled there, and another further east north of there
Scooter: furhter northeast was a barb city capture fyi, not a settler
YossarianLives: But we definitely said we intended to settle in the area but would table it until you were ready to discuss it
Scooter: anyway, expansive game is getting more land than your non-exp neighbors because it's a useless trait after 100T. if you fail to do that, that's a major error
YossarianLives: Anyways, it really is bygones. We obviously were able to have really great relations well after that happened.
Scooter: Yeah of course. I'm just surprised because this is the first I've heard of this being an issue
YossarianLives: Team decision was to not let it be an issue. You won the spot fair and square
Sent at 8:40 AM on Monday
YossarianLives: And it really isn't an issue. But since I couldn't get you to put anything on the table first, I thought I'd make the strongest case possible why including a little land in a NAP extension makes sense for both sides
I think the city was settled before we received an email you "forgot" to send letting us know you'd be settling there
Scooter: I can say this for sure: any offer that involves us giving up land we've settled is a non-starter. that's nothing personal, I just know for sure that would not be considered seriously
YossarianLives: But captured barb cities are maybe something different?
Or also a non-starter?
Scooter: I honestly don't remember the timeline, I'd have to go back and look.
Even if I wanted to accept something like that (I don't), there's no way on earth I could convince the team to agree to that
YossarianLives: Ok, good to know
I'm playing hardball here, but the point is that a NAP extension is not out of the question. I threw out a few starting suggestions. It sounds like we're not close right now, but who knows where we might get over the next 25 turns
I'm just trying to say it's not my team that is insistent that the NAP expires at T175. We've worked well with you in the past, we want to keep working with you, but we also don't want you to run away with the game before T200
Scooter: Yep, understood. Things are still changing rapidly so there's still time. I think I understand better how your team is thinking. I got the impression the situation was "give us a great NAP deal or else dogpile war" which is obviously not a positive situation
YossarianLives: Yeah, I get that. But in our view, a NAP extensions ia "a great NAP deal" for you, so we need something to even things back out
Scooter: Yeah fair enough. I don't have anything to offer at the moment. Maybe that will change in the future, maybe it won't, we'll have to see
we're both involved in crucial wars right now so I'd like to see how those go
Sent at 8:48 AM on Monday
YossarianLives: Well, like you said earlier. If your war goes poorly and your army is still tied up in the opposite direction, don't expect us to still be viewing a NAP with the same interest
But something tells me your war is about to go as smoothly as ours have been
Scooter: Yep, understood. and it looks like we both picked easy targets. Guess we should challenge ourselves a little more next time
YossarianLives: Well then, maybe you're more keen for a fight then you initially let on
Sent at 8:51 AM on Monday
Scooter: You know I'm sure there's a happy medium for both of us between picking off bottom-dwellers and clashing with soldier count rival best, but hey, stranger things have happened
Anyway, I'm about to step away for a bit, so I'll have to let you go
Sent at 8:54 AM on Monday
YossarianLives: Alright, sounds good
Sent at 8:55 AM on Monday

TL;DR

• Scooter says they did in fact raze Fort Alamo because it was poorly dot-mapped. We should double-check this in-game. If this is the case, I would expect them to move in with a Settler immediately
• He keeps asking about our war with the French. I told him I would ask the team how much info I can divulge
• He ignored my question about what the French have told him regarding our war
• I continued my campaign of trying to convince him we might extend the NAP, but keeping our demands too high for them to agree on. He saw right through this.
• I whined a bit about them stealing our Stone spot. I think this annoyed him and probably wasn't a good tactic, I'll stear clear of it in the future.

 

[vranasm]

when I read the chat the "whining" about stone city didn't felt that well, but I think in the end we made a point about having some "rights" to be pissed about them...

will be good points for our propaganda if we need it eventually.

seems to me like RB will rather war with us then give us something more then current NAP being a bit longer... I don't think they will be willing to give us even some gpt...

 

[2metraninja]

Scooter outright lies to us telling us he never knew we will be pissed off about them settling the isthmus while we were discussing it. And him sending us a mail letting us know they will settle it hours and days after they actually settled it, pretending to be normal faux-pa and forgetfulness, he just forgot about it?

Outright lying is not good form of diplomacy.

 

[2metraninja]

And of course they are not going to give us something. Not that we would accept something less then half their cities for a NAP anyway...

 

[Maga_R]

Scooter is definitely a very tough negotiator and probably a very experienced player. As we initially planned, at this stage it maybe to our advantage to present our diplomacy as chaotic and having several people doing it can be very useful: we could play bad cop/good cop game and have an opportunity to present all kinds of contradictory views to RB

If team is OK with team, I would love to try to chat with Scooter sometime this weekend. Let us just try it one time, he seem to be very good at hardball, he will probably eat me alive, but at least we may further confuse them ;-) and if it will not work at all, maybe be good, too, they may start to think that we will be similarly amateurish and chaotic and war and may get the impression that our membership is very low, since random and unknown people are doing diplomacy with such a crucial team

 

[bistrita]

So are gonna pilage some nice hamlest,vilage towns in rb lands or not? what team thinks about this.
?this is first oportunity to do so.

 

[YossarianLives]

Yes, absolutely pillage away everything we can while we have the chance!

 

[bistrita]

already done, we got first 21 free gold ,yey.

 

[2metraninja]

they may start to think that we will be similarly amateurish and chaotic and war and may get the impression that our membership is very low, since random and unknown people are doing diplomacy with such a crucial team

I prefer to not give RB reasons to think we are unsure in our politics and confused as whole yet.

 

[Maga_R]

I prefer to not give RB reasons to think we are unsure in our politics and confused as whole yet.

I was thinking it would be good to try to figure out what Scooter meant by saying that they would offer us something but are afraid we would ask too much - and I had an idea how to try to find that out. If I would try to do it as a one-time replacement diplomat the damage should be not big, if it would not work.

BTW, why do you think it is not good to make RB underestimate us? Not sure if we can do it - RB apparently is convinced that we are too smart too seriously engage in war with CivFr now :-( - but I thought it was you who was always preaching how dangerous is to underestimate your enemies?

 

[Sommerswerd]

I don't think Scooter has anything in mind to offer us. I think he was using that statement as bait to get us to say what we want.

 

[YossarianLives]

Well, it might be a good time to replace me as RB ambassador after all. I went and just about got myself banned from RB today.

Nah, it wasn't really that bad, but I do think I pissed a lot of them off. I now understand better how Sommerswerd and 2metraninja felt when they tried to invite RB to join this game and got run off the site! Anyways, I figured I should let the team know since this could definitely affect our diplomacy with them. My bad, sorry!

Then again, maybe we can find a way to use this to our advantage?

Edit: Just to clarify, I am fine continuing with the RB diplomacy if the team is comfortable with it, but I wanted to bring this up since it really could affect how they respond to me over there so I felt the team had the right to know (and there really wasn't any threat of a ban or anything like that, just some calls to delete my thread )

 

[RegentMan]

Wow I read that and they are some uptight peeps!

I am fine with you continuing, Yossarian.

 

[Sommerswerd]

... RB...

Yossa! You tricked me! I read that whole d@mn thread to see where you got banned only to see nothing about you getting banned, and then come back to this thread and finish reading your post to realize that you were not actually banned, just strongly rebuked by the RB clergy ... which as you correctly point out, has already happened to both myself (grammar?) and 2metra.

I started to post something in response to Krill... About how we actually followed the RB policy for a few days in a protest of their exclusion policy and to raise awareness on the subject, but I havent had anything to drink in quite a while so that wasn't happening.

BTW I am very happy for you to continue as RB diplomat Yossa... maybe I will pop my head in over there since Scooter was asking for me.

 

[Caledorn]

As I am still not able to perform properly in the role as Chief Diplomat, it would really be for the best if Yossarian can continue. Add to the fact that you've done an admirable job too, Yossarian, so you have my full confidence (and the rest of the team too I expect).

I hope to return within a few weeks, as things are finally starting to settle down, but I think it is a good idea if you keep the ambassadorship to RB even after I return if you have the time and opportunity to do so.

 

[YossarianLives]

Scooter found me this morning for a chat:

Scooter Hey Yossarian, you around? 8:04 AM
Me Hey Scooter, what's up? 8:18 AM
Scooter hey. so I wanted to pass on a note from the team, and chat seemed easier than email 8:19 AM
We'd like to firmly request that you stop pillaging tiles in neutral territory on our front with the Incan team 8:19 AM
Me Right, about that. I'm reminded of your answer when I asked you if your team would stop gifting a Ivory to the Spaniards 8:20 AM
Scooter Meh, apples and oranges. This is pretty much NAP abuse and I think you know that 8:21 AM
Me The pillage gold is very important to our research plans right now. We can't really give it up 8:21 AM
Scooter Anyway, we'd be willing to cancel our ivory trade if you would stop pillaging 8:21 AM
Me Well, I'll definitely take that back to the team. The Ivory has been a pain in the ass to deal with 8:22 AM
But your timing isn't the greatest. 8:22 AM
Scooter how so? 8:22 AM
Me Just that soon it might not be so crucial to us that the deal is cancelled. The damage is done at this point... 8:24 AM
I'm sure you've noticed their massive whipping recently 8:24 AM
I really don't mean to sound like a jerk here, but you're not leaving us a lot of options Scooter 8:24 AM
Scooter their whipping has been less than impressive, but yeah at least they've tried a little bit 8:24 AM
Me brb 8:24 AM
Scooter Anyway, I'm being realistic here. I said firmly request, but I know reality is we can't really stop you from pillaging 8:25 AM
I just want to communicate to you that refusing to stop is damaging and does anger team members, so if you want us to have any hope of a relationship going forward, I'd ask that you stop. 8:26 AM
however if you're willing to burn bridges, then I can't do anything to stop that, and I recognize that. So that's your team's call. 8:27 AM
Me Alright, I appreciate you being straightforward with us here. I'll take this back to the team and see what I can come up with. I've said it before that I do think we can have future cooperation after T175. 8:45 AM
I'm not going to lie, we knew that you'd notice the pillaging and you wouldn't be happy. But we also really did feel like your refusal to cancel the ivory trade was meant to signal that all bets are off, every team for themselves 8:46 AM
Scooter We got the "all bets are off" feel from finding out that you were trying to rally certain teams against us. It seems we've been in a bit of a cold war for quite some time 8:47 AM
Me Well, ever since we asked for assistance after the Spaniards first DOW'ed us and you turned us away, it seems like things have been quieter between our two teams 8:47 AM
But that doesn't mean things can't turn around 8:48 AM
Did you ever get a chance to talk to CivFr about our war, btw? 8:48 AM
Scooter We exchanged a message or two, but they haven't written us back in several days now. They're actually supplying the German team with ivory so you aren't the only ones dealing with surprise elephants 8:49 AM
Anyway, they say you guys declared war in order to sabotage their great merchant mission which you had previously agreed to allow 8:50 AM
seems like a pretty dirty trick if that's true. What happened from your perspective? 8:50 AM
Me Well, I did go back to the team to ask what I can divulge to you about the war. They said I've already said too much :/ 8:52 AM
Scooter heh, wow, tight-lipped. You hardly said anything, what could I possibly do with the little you told me? haha 8:53 AM
Me But obviously we disagree with what CivFr told you. We did not sabotage their GM mission, though we could have 8:54 AM
Scooter If anything I probably said too much, even just now, but it still seems worthwhile to me 8:54 AM
Me Maybe you at least believe me now that we aren't secretly working together or anything like that 8:54 AM
Scooter well I know the merchant did not die, but they said it came 1T away from completing the mission. you declared war, threatened it with units (did not kill), so they sprung a golden age to keep from wasting it 8:54 AM
Me No no, the merchant was never threatened. 8:55 AM
Scooter I never really believed that it was a conspiracy even slightly, but I figured a little bit of probing on that would maybe get you to at least give me the real reason 8:55 AM
so you deny placing multiple military units next to it after declaring war? 8:56 AM
Me I'm not the turnplayer so I'm not sure exactly what was around there, but let's say that we used non-combat escorts to show our peaceful intent 8:57 AM
It's surprising how hard it can be to get a team to talk before playing out their turns, especially considering how slowly the turns are moving 8:57 AM
Scooter haha, well I don't know that declaring war to prevent a trade mission is exactly "peaceful" but fair enough 8:58 AM
Me I'm glad we're in frequent communication, at least. To prevent any misunderstandings. 8:58 AM
DOWs don't prevent the ability to perform the mission, iirc 8:58 AM
I'm thinking about when Sullla used a merchant in PB2, although they might still have been at peace with their neighbor at that point. It was so long ago the details are a little hazy 8:59 AM
Scooter yeah he did that when at peace, the thing there was borders were closed, but merchants can ignore those 8:59 AM
anyway, so why did you deny them a trade mission you previously agreed to allow? 9:00 AM
and yes, though sure our relations have been strained a bit by natural game causes, I am glad we've chatted frequently. It's been pretty helpful. 9:00 AM
Me Again, no intention to deny it. But like I said, the team has asked me to stay more tight-lipped about the way, and you are getting more info from me than they'd probably like, already 9:00 AM
Scooter Hah, ok fair enough. It's just concerning to us that you would go back on a deal like that, seeing as we have deals with you and we've considered future deals with you 9:01 AM
Me Well, if we can clear things up and get into a more cooperative mindset with each other, we can probably start sharing more details about what is going on in the wider world. 9:02 AM
But we absolutely will not break any deals that we have made. Our NAP is good, our Marble trade is good, everything else in our treaty will be honored 9:03 AM
And on a personal note, I really have enjoyed chatting with you. I do hope we can keep it up. 9:03 AM
Scooter Fair enough on that, I had to ask. and agreed. Hopefully you've not taken any of my more "direct" comments personally. Just part of the game and the role on the team 9:04 AM
Me Oh absolutely. I've told the team several times that we're very fortunate to have you as diplomat. Based on what I've seen from your personality in other games we played, I know that you'd never lie, deceive, cheat, anything like that. 9:06 AM
Kind of a Team Gillette spoiler from way back in the beginning of the game, I remember when the team suggested we tell Trolls that I had the highest post count on the team, just to throw them off, and you put your foot down and said "No, we're not lying to them" 9:07 AM
That's why I was a little disappointed you're acting as ambassador to everyone. I was hoping some of the TEAM founders would be dealing with the other teams. 9:08 AM
Scooter well thanks, I appreciate that. i've appreciated all interactions i've had with both you and caledorn. our teams don't always agree on stuff of course, but I enjoy our chats 9:09 AM
haha, a couple of the TEAM founders have ideas of what we should say to teams, and they probably get tired of me overruling them 9:10 AM
Me 9:10 AM
So, I noticed that both our wars were less eventful last turn with no cities captured for the first time since your war started. Things starting to slow down a little for you? 9:12 AM
Scooter Well your chariot has a front-row seat so you should be able to see what's going on . But I wouldn't say slowing down, just a waiting turn. Fireworks should resume shortly 9:14 AM
anyway, headed out to lunch now, so I need to step away 9:15 AM
thanks for the chat 9:15 AM
Me Alright, nice talking to you 9:15 AM
Scooter Yep, you too 9:15 AM
Me Take care, and I'll get back to you about the pillaging thing
Scooter great, thanks

tl;dr

• RB wants us to stop pillaging former German villages, as they consider this "NAP abuse"
• I replied that we view it the same as their gift of Ivory to the Spaniards
• Scooter offers to cancel Ivory if we stop pillaging. I say it's probably too late for that.
• CivFr told RB that we DOW'ed to sabotage a trade mission that we had previously agreed to, which Scooter called a "dirty trick"
• I said we didn't intend to prevent the trade mission but that CivFr wasn't communicating with us, and anyways I'm not supposed to talk to him about our war.
• We conclude that it's good that we have open communication and hope relations between our teams can warm up a little.