2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
All good points. 
Foreign Policy: RealmsBeyond
- Thread starter talonschild
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YossarianLives
Deity
Perfect, thanks Sommers for that summary. I agree with everything you wrote. Now is the time to strengthen our existing alliances and show no weakness to RB and CivFr.
If I talk to scooter I will proceed as if nothing has changed from the last time we talked.
If I talk to scooter I will proceed as if nothing has changed from the last time we talked.
Do we have some deals that are not allowing us NAP with RB? 2metra, you said yourself you would accept such NAP if they would give as half of their land (know it is not gonna happen, just thought that we are free with RB).
I did not see CivFr response before - but now that I saw it, I am pretty much convinced that it will be war to death.
I hope that they are wrong in it that we lost the game the moment we declared on them - but I am afraid that refusing even to consider NAP with RB - even check if the offer still on the table - will achieve just that
Yeah, I am easily scared and suck at war, as documented in our Pitboss game. I pre-emptively agree
But I do believe that it is much better to be safe and sorry. And let us get a reality check - with CivFr as our sworn enemy, we are no more favorite to win this . Of course, I wish it would not be the case, but wishful thinking is not going to help us much.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
We have no official deal to not extend NAP. But all those months we were talking how our strategy will be and this was the most important things: we all dont extend NAPs with RB and all we 3 close borders as quick as we can.
This was spoken in many chats. And our allies/friends denied NAPs extentions with RB before us knowing what they agree to.
This was spoken in many chats. And our allies/friends denied NAPs extentions with RB before us knowing what they agree to.
RegentMan
Deity
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Yes, I know French are our sworn enemies. But what we could do? I said what is my thinking - better have 2 friends and 2 enemies, rather than having 1 enemy and zero friends.
I did propose we tell our allies first we consider it, so 6. is invalid. And it terms of us "looking as cowards" - if we keep antagonizing the strongest teams in game - we may look like ... dead. Just my 2c. And RB actually keeps saying they would give us NAP - we just for some reason refuse to believe them
And I was not advocating abandoning our allies - just to tell them that we need to resolve our problems with CivFr first, before we will be in position to antagonize RB. Additional benefit could be extra pressure from OT4E on CivFr to end their war with us.
OT4E has a NAP with CivFr until turn 190 - actually longer than his NAP with us. Why us trying to extend our NAP with RB to turn 190 (with informing Ot4E about it first) would be so wrong? Afterall, we will be more useful to our allies alive than dead
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
LOL, good one. But then, this is normally how you become big factor. By fighting hard battles.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
All those are good points too. But we cant rely on getting rid of French any soon with force. So they will be there and will be hostile to us for unknown long period of time. Ot4e and MZ cant wait for us eternal. If French are irrational and eager to hurt themselves only to hurt us, this will not change. And if they are going to listen to reason and make NAP with us, then they might do so in the next 20 turns, so we are not stained our relations with our allies-to-be.
There are many ways this to be looked at. For example, Genghis Khan were saying "Better come to help me on the battlefield with 10 people today, than come 1 day after the battle with 10 000". Yes, I know all depends...
Well, I would say: you are winning by choosing your battles wisely
But I am very happy to see that we are beginning to view things similarly
One of the reasons I may have different views it is that this is my first demo game. For me, fighting RB is not a goal on its own My only goal is to try to win this.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
But of course we dont want to fight RB for some personal reasons or something. It just turned out that they are the biggest threat and the team who is to win the game if not stopped. Do you really think we will have better chances to oppose them later alone if we are left now to freely fight CivFR? I simply think that now is the time for us to forge allies. RB will never be our allies in their current form as they are way too powerful for us to tackle.
I have no opinion, but Bistrita actually said that he would rather compete at the end with RB, whom he thinks we can out tech, than with CivFr. And CivFr has definitely acted much worse towards us than RB - and they said explicitly that they want us dead
- but we keep sending them peace offers . On the other hand, RB keeps offering us peace, but we are for some reason convinced that they are not meaning it and we are not even trying to find out ... Seems a bit strange to me, is all. Perhaps we have been simply planning RB's demise for too long that we got married to the idea a bit too much?YossarianLives
Deity
Scooter found me on chat:
tl;dr
I'm still trying to make them think extending the NAP is an option, since the longer we fool them the harder they have to whip / draft their cities to prepare for T175.
Scooter
congrats to your team on getting the first complete kill
our world is a slightly smaller place now
YossarianLives
Thanks! In the car now, I'll let you know when I can chat
YossarianLives
Ok, I'm here if you want to talk
Sorry I hadn't gotten back to you earlier, I've been pretty busy, but I hope you noticed that we did stop pillaging
Scooter
hey no problem. and yes, we did note and appreciate that
how's the CivFr war? I saw they razed one of your cities
YossarianLives
Thanks for your post in the tech thread also about the Spaniards attempted gift. We appreciate that. Very good sportsmanship on your part
We'll miss those guys, they were a lot of fun to play with
Scooter
Yeah we talked about it and it didn't seem right. I'm glad to hear your team feels similarly
YossarianLives
CivFr war is fine, just trying to hammer out the land division of former Zulu territory
Scooter
and agreed. they weren't a very strong team, but they made me laugh a lot.
YossarianLives
How is the German war going?
Scooter
I don't think they were very organized - they asked me about tech trading a week or so ago hahah. They somehow forgot TT is off
YossarianLives
Who, the Spaniards? I don't think they took a really close look at the rules
They kept asking us to send them screenshots of the land between us when we first met
Scooter
yeah makes sense. and it's going smoothly. their current turn player is a pretty competent defender, but they're obviously severely outmanned.
yeah the Spaniards. and that's funny, I don't doubt it.
YossarianLives
Yeah, they held their own against wpc pretty well earlier, but they're up against a whole different beast this time around
Poor Germans, can't catch a break!
Scooter
Yeah I feel for them. Someone has to be the victim
how does land splitting with CivFr even work? They have a bit of a reputation for not being timely in their communication
YossarianLives
Lol, not easily. That reputation is well earned!
How about sharing German lands? Is wpc going to try to get any of the spoils?
Scooter
well good luck with that, hah. Yeah they will, but as you can imagine their military techs are vastly outdated, so we'll see how much they can do.
YossarianLives
Yeah,I think we've pretty much figured it out now. Didn't go as smoothly as we wanted, but we think we found something fair for both sides
Hopefully the French agree lol
Scooter
Haha, guess so. Does that mean our team's war will be the only one soon?? So sad
And how much land are they really going to get? You guys did do basically all the work there
YossarianLives
Lol, we really don't want war! I get that you think our requests for a NAP extension are too much, but you haven't come back to us with anything
Scooter
Oh I was referring to our team's current war with Inca, not with your team
I think we both realize though that if we fight your team, CivFr wins
YossarianLives
Oh, got it
Well, hopefully wpc can join you to keep you company soon
Yeah, I think our the teams have really started to pull ahead of the pack.
But CivFr and us are finally starting to catch up to you a little bit
Those war preparations really have an impact on score
Scooter
Yep, sure do.
by the way, this is why it's difficult to convince the team to NAP with you guys since you seem to insist on payment
Taj + rolling over weakest team in the game will do that for you
YossarianLives
Sure, but you're about to roll over the next weakest team. And we've had to make some payments ourselves
Scooter
you've had to make some payments?
and eh, we don't get to keep all the Incan land. in terms of city counts, you'll be awfully close to even with us
YossarianLives
To a team that's been ahead of us in score this whole time!
Well, in terms of land concessions, giving up Zulu territory that really should be ours
Scooter
I was going to say you must mean CivFr, I certainly don't remember us getting any payments
YossarianLives
Lol, well, your marble (re)payment is coming
I just hope we don't meet the same fate as the last team that gifted you marble
Scooter
well, both cases we traded for the marble, and in both cases we gave up more than we received in order to get it, so I wouldn't call them gifts hah. but fair enough
YossarianLives
I don't think the cost was too high. You've definitely benefited a lot from our long NAP
Scooter
I think we've both benefitted a lot from it no doubt
CivFr would be the prohibitive favorite if we hadn't agreed on that deal
YossarianLives
Globe Theatre on the border may have been a more difficult build otherwise
Scooter
they've got some extremely good players
haha, it was going to get built one way or another, and that was the best spot for a drafting camp
YossarianLives
True, the NAP and trades have been good for both of us
Yeah, they're a smart team, just need to work on their diplo a little bit
Scooter
yeah, common issue for experienced MP teams like that. not accustomed to the diplo hassle
YossarianLives
Right, this definitely is not a ladder game
RB definitely seems to have the most experience with long PBs, even if you guys do hate half the settings we're playing with
I'm looking forward to reading Sullla's write-up of this game after its all over, to read about all our stoner moves, and the c&d work you guys must be doing. I hope he does one of those on his website.
Scooter
yeah it's a diverse team. I hope he does a post-game writeup. I think your team has been very strong in the last 75-80 turns especially. really went all-in to get nationalism that quickly, then all-in on the Zulu war. Obviously both paid off
YossarianLives
Yeah, I agree that's where we stopped dinking around and got more serious about the game
So you don't think there are Amy other teams out there getting ready to join the fun and go to war?
It definitely helps to pick up interest amongst the teammates
Scooter
I kinda doubt it, not a lot of serious building up happening
YossarianLives
Well you're probably keeping better track of that kind of thing than we are. We've had enough on our hands for awhile, as the saying goes
Scooter
Heh, understood. Sorry for the delay in messages, partially occupied with work and all that. And I've got to run now
YossarianLives
Alright, sounds good. Talk to you later
tl;dr
- Scooter asked about our CivFr war
- I told him we're "hammering out a border arrangement"
- I ask about the German war
- Scooter confirms that they are splitting land with WPC, at one point saying WPC has such a backwards military "we'll see how much they can do", but later complaining they're not getting all the inca lands and we're almost tied in city count.
- He comments on how no other teams are building for war right now.
I'm still trying to make them think extending the NAP is an option, since the longer we fool them the harder they have to whip / draft their cities to prepare for T175.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
I'm tired and will read it all tomorrow, but I read it to the middle and I think I found what I was looking for. This line is the thing that most impressed me so far. Can it be a mind-fcuk?
Nah, what we want is for RB to go down, and CivFr becomes the new #1, then we and CP (and/or Poly) take down CivFr together... So I am fine with us fighting RB and giving CivFr the lead, because it will just ake them the new target.
Don't forget that RB is in the lead right now... They are doing a good job constantly trying to distract us from this fact with all this talk about how attacking them (RB) gives the game to CivFr...
Nice try guys
NOT attacking RB gives the game to RB... So what Scooter is essentially trying to convince us of, is that we should not give the game to CivFr, and give the game to them instead.
Can't blame them for trying though...
Don't forget that RB is in the lead right now... They are doing a good job constantly trying to distract us from this fact with all this talk about how attacking them (RB) gives the game to CivFr...
Nice try guysNOT attacking RB gives the game to RB... So what Scooter is essentially trying to convince us of, is that we should not give the game to CivFr, and give the game to them instead.
Can't blame them for trying though...
Nah, what we want is for RB to go down, and CivFr becomes the new #1, then we and CP (and/or Poly) take down CivFr together... So I am fine with us fighting RB and giving CivFr the lead, because it will just ake them the new target.
Don't forget that RB is in the lead right now... They are doing a good job constantly trying to distract us from this fact with all this talk about how attacking them (RB) gives the game to CivFr...
NOT attacking RB gives the game to RB... So what Scooter is essentially trying to convince us of, is that we should not give the game to CivFr, and give the game to them instead.
Can't blame them for trying though...
Bistrita said he would rather have endgame with RB than CivFr - could he be bribed by RB, too?
And of course RB should say this no matter what. But just assuming that whatever RB says cannot be true and must be an attempt to mislead us is a bit extreme, too.
And score is not a perfect description of a civ strength - as best evidenced in our Intrateam Pitboss game right now, when one of the smallest civs is a current score leader because it has two vassals of almost the same size
YossarianLives
Deity
I believe scooter would accept a straight NAP extension right now. I doubt he could get the rest of his team on board, though.
vranasm
Deity
well obviously after war you need couple of turns to catch breath and prepare for another one, unless you steamrolling everyone around you with 1-2 era's ahead units
for example if they were already on Cavs they for sure wouldn't want any NAP's with anyone...
Maybe, but if the Team does not want it, then what Scooter individually wants does not matter as much. In any case, we have already committed not to extend...
This is the second time you mention this... I think you are missing that in my hypothetical scenario, we get rid of RB first and then CivFr, so we are not facing either of them in the endgame... So nothing I am saying is in conflict with Bistrita's preference. All Bistria is saying is that longterm, he sees CivFr as a bigger threat than RB... That's fine, so will neutralize both, one then the other. But we have the alliance to neutralize RB set up already... against CivFr we have squat. That's why we need to get RB taken care of now.
We don't need to assume that everything they say is untrue. I will repeat that what we should assume, is that RB is currently the team with the highest score and they are telling us to ignore that and go after the #2 score team. We should also assume that the reason they are saying this is because it benefits them, rather than assuming (as you seem to) that they are saying this because it is the best course of action for US.
This is what the strong Civs always say when trying to convince the smaller ones not to dogpile them
..."Pay no attention to my hundreds-of-points-higher-than-yours score, score doesn't mean anything! You can't go by score to decide who is in the lead! Anyway, its that guy with the SECOND highest score you need to worry about! Attack him not me! Sure I have higher score now, but if you take me out then HE will be the highest. So you should go after him, then you wont have to worry about him coming from behind and winning."
This argument is not persuasive to me, despite the fact that I hear it in almost every game because...
1. The whole argument is a glaring contradiction. If score doesn't matter, why are they sending us after the team with the second highest score? Simple, because SCORE DOES MATTER. RB sees CivFr as their closest, most dangerous rival... Why? Because they are the next highest team IN SCORE after them. So convince the #3 team to attack the #2 team and voila!... You have neutralized both of the next highest rivals without fighting either of them. We are not falling for that!
2. RB is the highest in score NOW. So they are the biggest threat to win NOW. Sure maybe CivFr will be the biggest threat later, but it is not later, it is now, so that's why we need to focus on stopping RB now.
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