TBH I take his comment to be a little bit of playing possum... As in he is trying to insinuate that CP and Poly have taken the brunt of their force, when in truth, they are saving it to do as much damage as possible to us.
Foreign Policy: RealmsBeyond
- Thread starter talonschild
- Start date
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
I doubt it. It seems it is like clash of ideas and civilizations sadly
They call everything CFC bad and evil. And seems they link me with the same. Which I dont know where it came from. Not totally humble I can say I am respected in ALL the civ sites I ever played. DOnt know what is wrong with RB and why they treat me like someone who does them evil. If I think of it, I cant really think of what evil I did to those guys. All I did was invite them to a game we were organizing here at CFC. Since then, I can bet 10 beers that in the following month they got the most new sign-ups and most returned players after long disappearing from their site. Inspired by ISDG, they made their own Demo-game. Their first Demo game. From the middle of 2009 to the end of the 2012 they had 7 pitbosses, or less than 3 per year. Since the announcement of ISDG2012, for about an year there were 8 (yes - EIGHT!!! more than they had since the first RB pitboss !!!) I would be really interested if their site admin can check, I can bet there were more new signups in this last year than they ever had before. So what me, Sommers and ISDG did was to revive and tighten their ranks, but they hate me for something Which is sad. I never cheated, nor insulted any of them. Which I cant say for some of their members being rude to me in personal. Yes, it is easy to be rude on the internet, I doubt any of them being so brave and reckless if he meets me in a bar. But this is the situation. I feel a bit bad about them associating our whole team with me. And I dont know why this association is a bad thing in their eyes 
The easiest for me is to give it to their arrogance and overproudness. This makes me belief there will be not a single refugee who will want to join our team if it comes to this End of the lyrical digression.
It's not very surprising that RB might associate team CFC to you and Sommers as you guys are our team captains. Especially since you've been very active in diplo and I think they know you are one of our main turn players, it is very easy to think that you and Sommers run the team. There's no way for them to know how we really are organized.I feel a bit bad about them associating our whole team with me. And I dont know why this association is a bad thing in their eyes
As for why they could think you're evil, well I think I know you already so well that you won't be too insulted if I speak my mind.
Let's face it, you are not always the most diplomatic or the most polite in your communications. TBH, from the set up discussions of the game and some earlier public communications I got the idea that you were kind of a douche who just knows how to play Civ really well. However, the time and discussions in the team have proven my first impressions seriously wrong. Now I know that you are actually a nice guy who knows how to play Civ really well. It's just that you seem to have a habit of occasionally getting into heated arguments. And some people can really resent the people they argue with. Of course it doesn't help if you sometimes wipe the floor with the proud RB dudes in the game as well.BTW, I don't believe that all the RB team is vehemently against CFC. It's probably just some of the more vocal guys in the team. I would be really surprised if we wouldn't get anyone to join our team. In fact, I'm ready to bet some beverage on that. I bet one ale that if we manage to destroy team RB during this 3 way dog pile so that the game is still far from over, we'll get at least one refugee from RB to join our team, as long as we politely ask to join us / remind them that we have open doors. Care to take the bet?
Oh and no intentionally sabotaging relationships with RB guys, please 
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Hahah, yes, I guess I do tend to get hot about arguments sometimes. This is not how I usually see myself TBH, but few people said this to me recently, wife including. She was like: "Have you ever looked at yourself when you make arguments and get hot? It is not only about winning the argument, you make sure to humiliate your opponent", to which I was generously surprised and saddened that I might look like this . But I take a note and try to be more careful
About the bet, I take it. 1 ale it is. And no, I wont sabotage intentionally relations with RB (as if there is more room to do so 
)
. But I take a note and try to be more careful About the bet, I take it. 1 ale it is. And no, I wont sabotage intentionally relations with RB
(as if there is more room to do so )
(as if there is more room to do so
I will also take that bet. No one on RB will join CFC after they are defeated.
Arkipeller
Ancient of Lore
He sounded bitter.
I have confidence that you bistrita and 2metra are just flat out better fighters than anyone over there. We have outmanuvered RB in diplomacy, at least for now, of this there can be no doubt. Now we have to beat them on the battlefield, and I have high spirits because I think that this is one of 2metra's greatest talents. I do not know if you are better at War or at micro, but it is clear to me that you are a master at both, so yes, I have high spirits
Yes I sensed this too from him, but I think he was very chivalrous about it, repeating that his congrats were genuine etc... However, as I said I don't think we can start counting chickens just yet. All we have right now are eggs. RB can still surprise us with some stealth alliance or by breaking up our alliance from within. We would be fools to assume that they have just given up completely, or that they are not devising some new tricks to get out of this mess
YossarianLives
Deity
I don't know if we'll be able to get anyone from RB to join, but more because I think most of them have pretty much checked out of this game at this point, not because everyone at RB hates everything that is CFC. Anyways, I chatted with Scooter to give them notice that we will DOW them this turn.
tl:dr
Between all the off-topic chatter, Scooter says they're screwed
YossarianLives: Hey Scooter, you around?
Sent at 7:03 AM on Friday
Scooter: hey, I"m around now
Sent at 3:57 PM on Friday
Scooter: sorry I missed your message earlier. busy day at work so I wasn't signed in much
YossarianLives: Oh no problem
TGIF
Scooter: seriously!
YossarianLives: Well, I just wanted to let you know that we'll be declaring war this turn
Scooter: yeah, figured
YossarianLives: Yeah, I didn't think it would come as too much of a surprise
But good luck in the upcoming conflict. I'm still available if you want to hit me up about anything
Scooter: hah, well thanks. I don't imagine you guys are too interested in any sort of deal at this point, so I figure we probably wont' have much to discuss
nicely done getting the western duo to do the dirty work for you. no sarcasm - nicely done. barring something crazy happening, you guys probably have got this thing well in hand
YossarianLives: Well we can always chat about the big win over Notre Dame coming up tomorrow
Scooter: sure hope so! you a michigan fan??
YossarianLives: Thanks, I think your swift defeat of the German army made all your neighbors nervous
Yeah, alum
Scooter: yeah they basically got scared into it I think. understandable, but if I were them, I would be making sure they werne't just replacing one runaway (us) with another (you).
oh, nice
I went to school out of state, but grew up watching michigan football every saturday
YossarianLives: Well here's to hoping for that outcome
Scooter: yep!
Sent at 4:03 PM on Friday
YossarianLives: We'll just have to keep an eye that your new friends UCiv don't come at us from behind
Scooter: heh. those guys definitely dont' have any military. but that funding is kiiiind of a big deal
YossarianLives: Yeah, T175 couldn't come fast enough. Rifles will be scary
Scooter: I wish CivFr had actually tried to do diplo this game. I think they would have been natural allies with us geographically, and that probably could have kept things from getting to where they are
yeah, we'll scrape together what rifles we can get. because what we DO have is certainly not scary for cavs and cannons, hah
Sent at 4:06 PM on Friday
YossarianLives: Would have been a much different game. The timing on CivFr accepting peace with us worked out very nicely
Scooter: haha no kidding. we had sent them like 5 straight messages over the course of a few weeks and they ignored them all and made peace.
guess they really want to finish 2nd
Sent at 4:09 PM on Friday
YossarianLives: I think they just really couldn't see themselves making any gains. We both had spies in each other's territory (I assume), so any move one of us would make would immediately get countered
Scooter: yeah I mean that much makes sense, but when they can get confirmation that you guys are swinging the bulk of your army into our land, that's a fairly open back door
and also confirmation that if they dont intervene, you guys are about to have way way more cities than them, hah
Sent at 4:13 PM on Friday
YossarianLives: Well this is when you need to get Sulla back in the game. He's the expert at defeating dogpiles
Scooter: heh. beating poorly timed dogpiles of outdated units is much easier than dogpiles from teams with more advanced units than you
YossarianLives: Otherwise I'm just hoping Mostly Harmless lives up to his name
Scooter: heh, how'd you know he was playing turns? did he log in with his actual name recently?
you guys gonna take starfall this turn?
YossarianLives: No, but he posted asking that the warring teams not end turn since he only has a short window to play in a few days
Scooter: ah right
Sent at 4:19 PM on Friday
YossarianLives: I haven't seen any pictures to see what you've been able to stuff in Starfall yet. I assume you knew we were coming
Scooter: yeah. there's not too much in there. was just curious if you guys would be taking with 2 movers or waiting for cannons, which you probably haven't decided until you take stock of what's in there
YossarianLives: Yeah, we've got our contingency plans
Scooter: heh, of course
Sent at 4:21 PM on Friday
YossarianLives: Alright, well it's just about quitting time. I better start finishing up so I can head home
Scooter: alright, enjoy the weekend1
YossarianLives: You too. Go Blue!
Scooter: yep!
tl:dr
Between all the off-topic chatter, Scooter says they're screwed
RegentMan
Deity
Heh I'd say the same thing in a chat with an enemy. We still must be focused.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
RB are far from finished. Yet. Yes, they know they wont be the superpower they hoped to be and if they live it will be a struggle. But they are certainly not dead yet.
I would had been interested to see what Scooter say about how they got Uciv to give them those 3000 gold and give them at least a fighting chance.
I would had been interested to see what Scooter say about how they got Uciv to give them those 3000 gold and give them at least a fighting chance.
So I'm wading through this thread, and I'm going to just comment on the highlights as I go. Hope you guys don't mind!
Fun trivia: the "pink dot" term was first used at CFC way back in 2001 during Civ3 times. It was used by Sirian from RB - RB historically would run Succession Games over at CFC since it gave a bigger audience. If you don't know who Sirian is, he programmed just about all the original map scripts for Civ4 and Civ5 and has done all sorts of other things. The story is here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-110400.html - original pink dot as far as I can find on the internet is linked in there:
Of course that was loooong before I ever had a CFC *or* RB account, but yes, that's why it's a weird "cultural" thing. It's an overused term and often a mistake to actually do it in game (it's a desperation play, not a typically sensible strategy against humans), but that's the history behind it. Utterly pointless internet forum trivia over.
It's been a loooong time since this, and our subforum is so massive that it would take me forever to dig through, but I'm pretty sure the loose logic was that it was a commerce-heavy spot. Commerce->tech, and the "Mansa's Muse" game was a wacky game that ran many years back where each player could choose any one tech on the tree to start with on T0 and the goal was basically to see who could best break the game with a random modern tech. So I'm pretty sure that was the way that one was chosen. Or honestly I might be imagining things and it was just random, that was a loooong time ago. And wow I write all this up only to scroll to the next post and see that Yossarian already answered it
. Ah well, I'll leave this in just to confirm it wasn't really a reference to your leader choice, but it is funny that it turned out that way.
Amazingly, this was absolutely not a lie, which Caledorn knows now from having read our forum. I genuinely thought it was sent a couple days before we settled it. Easily my most frustrating screw-up of the game. In terms of it being an aggressive plant, of course it was, won't deny that for a second. It violated no agreements, but it toed the line of the spirit of the initial correspondence - absolutely. It's civ. It wasn't my call really nor my main preference, but I was ok with it. An emotional reaction from your team is very reasonable in that case - we had a similar one with the Taj/marble stuff later in the game. But man, not getting that message sent like I thought just made the emotional response worse, and it was very natural for you guys to assume the worst. Welp, uh... sorry, my bad?? Hah. In retrospect I shouldn't have even admitted that I forgot and just changed the message since obviously there was no chance you guys would have believed that.
Anyway, the infamous Starfall planting seems like as good a point as anyway to pause, post this, and then continue reading. I imagine that moment pretty much served as the dividing line between our two teams.
One thing I find super interesting reading through this is it seems you guys fell into the same thing we did. I felt in our diplo discussions, many of our players were overly-fixated on your team - reading lies/deceit into statements Caledorn said to us that clearly had none, etc. It's really funny for me to read my messages getting hyper-analyzed in the same exact way. Anyway, I was chatting to Caledorn this afternoon while reading this stuff, and rather than rehashing, I'll just post this because it's an interesting what-if to me:
I don't quite know why both of our teams seemed to unhealthily fixate on each other. I don't know if it was just some of the pre-game disagreements or what, but it had a pretty unique effect on the game and both of our choices. The paranoia factor itself played a lot into the settling of Starfall, I know. From reading your threads, it seems you guys wanted to rush to that spot too for the same reasons as us:
When neither side really trusts the other to be friendly longterm (and I know from being on RB and now from reading your threads that it was definitely true), you tend to just try to "get yours" and defend yourself. I get the distinct feeling that silly stone was going to be the end of RB/CFC relations regardless of who settled it. Darn you plako for putting it there.
Another thing is to watch out for one thing they are really proud of and I can bet 1 to 5 beers they will try this game too - The Pink Dot city style. They used that with great success in the last ISDG and they even believed the term is "RB made" (which is of course not true - it have CFC origin
Fun trivia: the "pink dot" term was first used at CFC way back in 2001 during Civ3 times. It was used by Sirian from RB - RB historically would run Succession Games over at CFC since it gave a bigger audience. If you don't know who Sirian is, he programmed just about all the original map scripts for Civ4 and Civ5 and has done all sorts of other things. The story is here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-110400.html - original pink dot as far as I can find on the internet is linked in there:
Of course that was loooong before I ever had a CFC *or* RB account, but yes, that's why it's a weird "cultural" thing. It's an overused term and often a mistake to actually do it in game (it's a desperation play, not a typically sensible strategy against humans), but that's the history behind it. Utterly pointless internet forum trivia over.
It's been a loooong time since this, and our subforum is so massive that it would take me forever to dig through, but I'm pretty sure the loose logic was that it was a commerce-heavy spot. Commerce->tech, and the "Mansa's Muse" game was a wacky game that ran many years back where each player could choose any one tech on the tree to start with on T0 and the goal was basically to see who could best break the game with a random modern tech. So I'm pretty sure that was the way that one was chosen. Or honestly I might be imagining things and it was just random, that was a loooong time ago. And wow I write all this up only to scroll to the next post and see that Yossarian already answered it
. Ah well, I'll leave this in just to confirm it wasn't really a reference to your leader choice, but it is funny that it turned out that way. Amazingly, this was absolutely not a lie, which Caledorn knows now from having read our forum. I genuinely thought it was sent a couple days before we settled it. Easily my most frustrating screw-up of the game. In terms of it being an aggressive plant, of course it was, won't deny that for a second. It violated no agreements, but it toed the line of the spirit of the initial correspondence - absolutely. It's civ. It wasn't my call really nor my main preference, but I was ok with it. An emotional reaction from your team is very reasonable in that case - we had a similar one with the Taj/marble stuff later in the game. But man, not getting that message sent like I thought just made the emotional response worse, and it was very natural for you guys to assume the worst. Welp, uh... sorry, my bad?? Hah. In retrospect I shouldn't have even admitted that I forgot and just changed the message since obviously there was no chance you guys would have believed that.
Anyway, the infamous Starfall planting seems like as good a point as anyway to pause, post this, and then continue reading. I imagine that moment pretty much served as the dividing line between our two teams.
One thing I find super interesting reading through this is it seems you guys fell into the same thing we did. I felt in our diplo discussions, many of our players were overly-fixated on your team - reading lies/deceit into statements Caledorn said to us that clearly had none, etc. It's really funny for me to read my messages getting hyper-analyzed in the same exact way
. Anyway, I was chatting to Caledorn this afternoon while reading this stuff, and rather than rehashing, I'll just post this because it's an interesting what-if to me:Spoiler :
I don't quite know why both of our teams seemed to unhealthily fixate on each other. I don't know if it was just some of the pre-game disagreements or what, but it had a pretty unique effect on the game and both of our choices. The paranoia factor itself played a lot into the settling of Starfall, I know. From reading your threads, it seems you guys wanted to rush to that spot too for the same reasons as us:
Exactly. We were planning this too, and were outplayed, so nothing here to complain about. Only issue I have is how they "forgot" to send the message. Come on, we are reading one and the same school-books, we know those tricks
When neither side really trusts the other to be friendly longterm (and I know from being on RB and now from reading your threads that it was definitely true), you tend to just try to "get yours" and defend yourself. I get the distinct feeling that silly stone was going to be the end of RB/CFC relations regardless of who settled it. Darn you plako for putting it there.
Oh it happened again, I type out a big explanation and Yossarian sagely points it out just a few posts later.
Yes. There was a stretch in February where I worked a couple ridiculous weeks and I was rarely at home. Not normal for me, just one of those crunch-time type things. Also this:
I think is a smart post on a number of levels.
How to put this... diplomatically. That was not me, nor was I happy that a non-diplo person was speaking for our whole team like that. I'll leave it at that.
Oh yes I badly want to use this as my user title over at RB. This nearly made me laugh out loud at my desk.
Just as a general comment: nope, that was not a lie nor a stall. The timestamp of that post lines up with 5PM in my timezone, which is the end of the workday for me. I was literally about to leave work for the night when Caledorn got me on chat, and I actually remember that night because I was not going straight home, so the chat was especially bad timing. Also, up to this point I basically never logged into the game - no need, we had dozens of screenshots posted per day. I genuinely had no idea off the top of my head when the borders popped, nor was it possible for me to login and check - I didn't even have the mod installed at the time. So yes, your C&D guy was doing so well that he knew our builds better than me.
General comment: it was really fun reading your team's half of the big T175 NAP/stone agreement. I just enjoy high-stakes diplomacy, so that whole nightmare was weirdly enjoyable to me.
Yes. There was a stretch in February where I worked a couple ridiculous weeks and I was rarely at home. Not normal for me, just one of those crunch-time type things. Also this:
I think is a smart post on a number of levels.
How to put this... diplomatically. That was not me, nor was I happy that a non-diplo person was speaking for our whole team like that. I'll leave it at that.
Good job sending the message Caledorn and also dealing with Scooter (that lying cheating piece of trash)...
Oh yes I badly want to use this as my user title over at RB
. This nearly made me laugh out loud at my desk. Just as a general comment: nope, that was not a lie nor a stall. The timestamp of that post lines up with 5PM in my timezone, which is the end of the workday for me. I was literally about to leave work for the night when Caledorn got me on chat, and I actually remember that night because I was not going straight home, so the chat was especially bad timing. Also, up to this point I basically never logged into the game - no need, we had dozens of screenshots posted per day. I genuinely had no idea off the top of my head when the borders popped, nor was it possible for me to login and check - I didn't even have the mod installed at the time. So yes, your C&D guy was doing so well that he knew our builds better than me.
General comment: it was really fun reading your team's half of the big T175 NAP/stone agreement. I just enjoy high-stakes diplomacy, so that whole nightmare was weirdly enjoyable to me.
@ Classy - From what I have seen/heard, I don't think RB respects or enjoys roleplay. In fact I think they ridicule it somewhat
I've seen this comment a few times in this thread, and I don't quite understand it. Roleplay is not my cup of tea, but I've seen a ton of it in RB games. Civ is a fun hobby, and however it's fun for you is good with me. Shrug.
Anyway, I'm gonna break for awhile and read the rest maybe tomorrow or something. Hopefully you guys don't mind me going through and commenting on various moments, just thought it would make for a fun hindsight discussion.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
I am glad to see you reading and commenting/discussing especially this thread. I was curious to see your point of view and to hear your stories. I wont interrupt you, but rather ask/comment once you are done to the end of the thread.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
BTW, who was your team leader and who was in the high command?
It was a pretty wide variety. For the majority of the game, Sullla played and reported turns - although for the first large chunk of the game that just meant following the microplan. I guess you would call him team leader for most of it, but he steered well clear of the diplo stuff with one or two, um... unfortunate exceptions
. Kjn did C&D, I did diplo. Our first 100+ turns early microplan was primarily novice, SevenSpirits, and NobleHelium (among others). They were seriously doing full sims for every single city and worker in a full sandbox up until we had 14 or so cities .
SevenSpirits
Immortal?
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2007
- Messages
- 512
It was a pretty wide variety. For the majority of the game, Sullla played and reported turns - although for the first large chunk of the game that just meant following the microplan. I guess you would call him team leader for most of it, but he steered well clear of the diplo stuff with one or two, um... unfortunate exceptions
And typing every action and city output up into the planning spreadsheet, ugh.
Our micro planning was very good, and Sullla did an excellent job of turnplaying while the job was following the plan and reporting every turn so we could have good discussions about it.
Having a spreadsheet to follow lasted until liberalism or so. It got really hard to maintain towards the end, as we got up to 17 cities. It wouldn't have been reasonable without having as many people willing to work on it as we did.
2metraninja said:
As a member of the second group, the inexperienced howling for blood, I can say this is uncannily accurate and quite hilariously so.
Smugness was a problem, as was the hidden assumption that having more experience and knowledge in how to optimize Civ IV mechanics automatically translates to being better at strategy (that transcends even the specific game being played) and reading human nature, and so on. At times the more experienced Civ players aggressively shut down discussion from some really smart people whose ideas ought to have been considered. And there was an idea that if you weren't willing to contribute to an actual micro plan, you needed to just shut up.There also were a great number (as many as 50 perhaps) and variety of players following the game and chiming in at various points, with a wide spectrum of attitudes including about CFC.
Caledorn
Emperor
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and laughs with us, scooter, now that you've finally seen this side of the story too Also a big thank you to Seven and William for chiming in. I had a great time when I read the diplothreads at RB.
I'll go back to lurking
Also a big thank you to Seven and William for chiming in. I had a great time when I read the diplothreads at RB.I'll go back to lurking
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