From A to Z: #3 Augustus

[Gwaja]

Update imminent within 10 minutes.... stay tuned.

RESERVED.

 

[sampsa]

Not sure what's going on, with Ind and stone each forest for Pyras = 50h
Why i'm saying, they cost almost nothing here.

Sure it's 50, but then the cost is 500, not 200.

@Sound i think everyone is already bored of my games, i have several Deity + Pyra wins here.

I am not bored of your games. Are you bored of your games?

 

[Izuul]

You can't use the multipliers to find the effective cost of each wonder (200 and 100) then use the multiplier again for forest chops. Either the wonders cost 500 and 200 and forest chops are worth 50 and 30 or they cost 200 and 100 and forest chops are worth 20 for both.

 

[Fippy]

Splitting hair here, they are cheap and i think only that matters.
Of course i was not adding everything double.
And yep you can abuse fail gold and build them with this start, but only if you are researching the "good" techs.

 

[Fippy]

I am not bored of your games. Are you bored of your games?

Yes, i play very different stuff for myself now.

 

[Gwaja]

Yes, i play very different stuff for myself now.

Yep. Very different stuff indeed..... imminent cooked maps with no resources and Raging Barbarians tailor made just for your enjoyment! Oh... and this time with all the AIs starting with 5 gold mines and your start filled with deserts and tundras... ^_^

Okay so I am mean... just don't hate me! ^_^

 

[Seraiel]

Gwaja..Gwaja..Pyramids cost less than the Oracle here.
This discussion is caused by peoples who are mostly not playing normal maps or games.
You are smarter than falling for this
Putting a few forests more in hurts less than researching 3 crappy techs, and talking about rather capturing them already goes into super silly territory. But again, caused by the way they play their maps.

First lying / inventing things and then calling me and others silly actually is enough reason for me to react.

FYI:

All of my games are documented in the HoF.

From those 23 games, exactly 3 are on normal speed, but:

If looking at only the games I've played since I came back from my hiatus, those are 3 of 17 games (18%) .

This at first sounds quite normal, as there are 4 speeds, so if I played every speed uniformly distributed, 25% (1/4th) normal games would be expected. 18% is only a small aberration from 25% (1/4th to 1/5th) , but:

If underlaying the scheme that Epic speed is scaled exactly like normal speed, we'd get 9 of 17 games (53%) which is even nearer the uniformly distribution I talked of, but:

If now also counting the games that were played on Quick speed, the hardest speed available judged by the majority of players (see recent thread on page 1 for this) , 15 of 17 games were played using either the same mathematic formulas you talked of, or even harder ones!

So exactly 2 games (!) were played in the manor of which I assume that you assume that I play with (Marathon) .

Now I could take this math a lot further and also analyze the amount of "ultra-mega-hard games" because there were games that used settings like "Large / Deity / Quick / Raging Barbs" with the requirement of Conquest Victory, or slightly less hard ones like "Standard / Quick / Conquest" or "Huge / Epic / Conquest" , but as I just think about that:

From the 17 games, 6 were Conquest / Domination games and none used a CIV that has as good units as the Protorians are, so...

Are you still really really sure that that what you posted was / is right? Because if it weren't, I think you'd actually owe at least me an apology. The other users of course would have to perform this analysis on their own games, I'm quite sure that TMIT could do that aswell .

If you think you were / are still right, would you be so nice to re-write and explain what you were actually trying to say?

Because I've said in the beginning what I'm currently thinking what did...

If you want, you can ask as many questions to those games that you want, but if you do so, I could also begin to ask questions, like i. e. on how many games you could prove to have achieved a victory using the same rules that I did? (No cheating, no reloading, etc.)

Well i'm comparing hammers and tech order
Let's see..Pyramids cost you 500/2/1.5 = 200h. Very cheap.
Oracle..150/1.5 = 100h.

Now 100h difference are 2 forests cos you get 50h for each with stone wonders, without maths or anything. At your starting position, 2 forests are let's say easily found.

Main differences are that you can research AH for an awesome food tile, which works together very well with whipping or growing for rep. specialists. You can also tech masonry, where you get 2.5h again for the great wall (fail gold or build, or both) cos this can go later on Immortal.

You can also set up a settler producing city with many hammers (cows, stone) while Rome grows fast and will have no problems getting 2 Rep. scientists while still being productive.

Then, you get Great Engineer + Scientist points (very nice).
The whole MC argument is very questionable with marble too, 150% bonuses again for Literature wonders. I would probably take Aesthetics anyways with an Oracle.

Now all this does not even include considering that your Oracle date would be questionable, you could lose that. You cannot lose a very powerful Pyramids, Parth, Glib and so on combination.
Even if you tried, i think you could not lose those wonders here.

May I also try to lose those Wonders too Fippy? I'm quite sure I would achieve to fail to get them... Maybe just by so much chance like I'm sure I'd have achieving Oracle MC on the difficulty on which this game is actually played on...

I btw. still don't get why "Brother Augustus" shouldn't visit "Sister Lizzy" with some "Nicetorians" and I btw. also don't know why "Brother Augustus" shouldn't pay a visit to the Oracle before building the Mids, or before letting his Sister Lizzy build them for her?

Just a very small personal note on Aesthetics btw.: Augustus doesn't really need Aesthetics that much as his enemies which got visited by Bashertorians .

 

[sampsa]

Well i'm comparing hammers and tech order
Let's see..Pyramids cost you 500/2/1.5 = 200h. Very cheap.
Oracle..150/1.5 = 100h.

Now 100h difference are 2 forests cos you get 50h for each with stone wonders, without maths or anything. At your starting position, 2 forests are let's say easily found.

Splitting hair here, they are cheap and i think only that matters.
Of course i was not adding everything double.

If you seriously still didn't get it, the bolded part is wrong: the difference is 5 forests. Pointing out blatant math mistakes / brain farts is hardly "splitting hair".

 

[soundjata]

@ Fippy: Still this mmorpg?

Edit: Well am I reacting to an erased answer here Fippy you made me check back that Bizantine game

This thread is definitely the place to be on this Saturday
Gwaja your update delay is causing flames Guys why so Cyrus?

 

[Fippy]

The difference between Oracle *without* marble and Pyramids *with* stone are 2 forests.
Like that or not. Nothing wrong here.

 

[sampsa]

The difference between Oracle *without* marble and Pyramids *with* stone are 2 forests.
Like that or not. Nothing wrong here.

*facepalm*

 

[Gwaja]

This turnset was pretty difficult for me to decide which direction to head towards. I think everyone here had a valid opinion on how to go on from here, and I tried to take in and apply as much of the good stuff everyone has provided for me as possible.

So, without further adieu, here is how things turned out:

Spoiler :

I continued on my research towards Bronze Working. I wanted to be able to chop early, see where copper is, and decided that I had more window of opportunity to build the Pyramids if I wanted to, but that I didn't have as much time with the Oracle. I do want the Oracle (if I wasn't Industrious, I would probably not even have bothered) after all, and also decided that settling near the gold was a top priority since there were so many techs to research on the way as well.

Turn 15/3400 BC: I meet another neighbor... everyone's favorite AI. Surely... it can't be any better than this!

Spoiler :

Or NOT! Of course, no surprise that he and Lizzy hate each other's guts from the start. He came from the northwest, so I am assuming he is located somewhat farther towards the river stretch that starts from the fresh water lake by the stone.

My 1st worker popped on this turn. I decided to farm the pigs first, as I want that extra commerce, and also because of the fact that it takes too long just to get to the corn. I figured the early commerce was more important anyway.

Spoiler :

Turn 17/3320 BC: Hinduism is founded in a far away land.

Turn 24/3040 BC: Bronze Working is finished. No sight of copper within visible range so far. Ah well, that's too bad... perhaps I need a bit more exploration. In the meantime, I decided to go for Mysticism now and maybe try for a fail gold attempt at Stonehenge.

Turn 30/2800 BC: Mysticism is finished. Next tech: The Wheel.

Turn 32/2720 BC: From the west emerged another AI:

Spoiler :

No surprise there that he founded a religion (Buddhism). Too bad Monty didn't found a religion of his own, or it could have been an instant hate between them. Since it took him this long to find me, I am assuming that he is farther away.

Turn 38/2840 BC: The Wheel is finished. I decided to go for Animal Husbandry next. I also got my 1st settler with one chop of the forest 1S of the corn and the worker is farming the corn now.

Also, some interesting development:

Spoiler :

The copper is spotted. This drastically changes the city placement of the gold city, wouldn't it? There is no seafood anywhere that a gold city can use, so I am thinking 1SW of the gold would probably be the best place to settle.

Turn 39/2440 BC: Judaism is founded in a far away land. On the next turn, I found out that it was Lizzy who founded it. That's good news for me! ^_^


Turn 42/2320 BC: Antium is founded 1SW of the gold.

Spoiler :

Yes... it is 1 off the coast, but I am only losing out on 1 coastal tile. I figured that I wanted to keep as many cottageable tiles as much as I could, while boosting the food production of this city with the cow in the 2nd ring, and also the copper as well. Sacrifice had to be made in the form of having the city not coastal, but I think this was a better spot for me.

And then the unexpected happened:

Spoiler :

LOL! I so did not intend to build this! I wanted the fail gold, and I forgot to switch out of it for something else, and by the time I realized, I was already 1 turn away from finishing it... so why not! No need to worry about putting up monuments for border pops, which makes settling a little easier by not having to worry about putting resources in the 1st ring all the time.

Turn 50/2000 BC: Animal Husbandry is finished. And then another interesting development:

Spoiler :

Yep, you saw that right... horse is also nearby the western corn. And you can also see pigs and rice to the west of the horse as well. I guess there will have to be another change in plan for the city placement in that area, don't you think?

Turn 59/1640 BC: Meditation is finished. Now off to Priesthood! Justinian got Writing in this turn, so I opened borders with him. Also somewhere in the far away land, Great Wall was erected.

Turn 60/1600 BC: Barbarians are starting to become a problem:

Spoiler :

Turn 63/1480 BC: I meet another AI, again from the western direction:

Spoiler :

This bunch of AI on this land isn't so bad to deal with. Lincoln also had Writing, so I opened borders with him as well....

Turn 65/1400 BC: Priesthood is finished. Pottery is chosen next.

Turn 69/1240 BC: And this is the turn where everything sorta falls into place:

Spoiler :

The copper is also finally hooked up... that will give me some peace of mind against the barbarians for sure!

Turn 72/1120 BC: I found out that Lincoln is able to trade techs now, confirming that he now has Alphabet.

Turn 73/1080 BC: Masonry is finished. Writing is chosen next. Justinian also got Alphabet this turn as well....

Turn 75/1000 BC: Cumae is settled:

Spoiler :

I know everyone suggested settling elsewhere, but with the location of the horse, the plan changed slightly... I was initially gonna settle in between the stone and the western corn, but now... with Masonry already available with lots of workers, my priorities have changed a bit...

Turn 76/975 BC: I switched into Slavery... Also, the stone quarry is online!

Turn 78/925 BC: About to 2-pop whip a forge and apply the overflow into the Pyramids. 3 nearby forests have already been pre-chopped as well.

Spoiler :

Turn 80/875 BC: After the overflow and 3 chops, the progress on the Pyramids:

Spoiler :

Turn 81/850 BC: Lincoln comes knocking on my door:

Spoiler :

You wouldn't seriously believe I would do such stupid trade like that, would you? I mean, come on now... I do like trading techs but this is ridiculous! I will come see you very soon though.... I promise! ^_^

Writing is finished. I opened borders with Monty and Lizzy as well... and I decided from here to go on to Aesthetics. I need trade baits for Alphabet soon, but I don't really want to trade away Metal Casting just yet... Oh, and I also need Iron Working sooner rather than later, but I don't feel like self teching that... I almost never do anyway...

Turn 82/825 BC: I produced my first Axemen. Some sigh of relief for barbarian protection... and it would seem that the barbarians have been quite busy themselves making settlements in the thickness of the jungles nearby....

Turn 84/775 BC: Rome produces a Great Prophet. Yeah, I know... some of you are going... UGH! USELESS! Well... I actually like these guys. And I don't really mind settling them either, or use them for even a Golden Age or... doing something funky like a Theology bulb. At any rate, I am gonna save this guy until the end of this turnset and see what everyone would have to say about this guy!

Turn 86/725 BC: Hmph! Just because I feel rebellious and weird, probably because I am drunk....

Spoiler :

Let me see here... +100% from stone, +50% from industrious, and +25% from Forge... uh that was an overkill... really though, it really wasn't all that bad with a few chops and a couple of whips and overflows applied from building Forge and Granary. Now the Library needs to be set up here ASAP, and then I'd need to run Representation soon.

State of the World:

First, the AI relations:

Spoiler :

Oh my... it is incredible how much Monty and Lizzy hate each other's guts. Lizzy gets a -7 penalty with Monty just for being a peaceful self.... while Monty gets a -5 penalty with Lizzy for being a psychomaniac nutcase! Everything else is kinda up in the air right now though....

Civics and Foreign Trades:

Spoiler :

Obviously no foreign trades... everyone is too far away from me right now, and this map doesn't seem to be one of those maps with lots of islands around. But look at the religion situation! Everyone is running Buddhism except Lizzy... it looks like somebody is gonna get sandwiched in here eventually... and if Buddhism spreads here, I'd be very happy to switch into it, and then most likely, Lizzy would have to be my first victim, don't you think? ^_^ And she is, closest from me, though the vast stretch of jungle in between is a bit problematic... where is my Iron Working!?

Techs:

Spoiler :

Alpha and Iron Working, I am planning to trade for them. Currently doing a bit of binary research by putting some gold into treasury first, but it is slow going. Holding off on trading Metal Casting for now though. My tech rate will improve as soon as I get my Library up.... and I'd need to expand again soon, as soon as my tech rate improves a bit from here...

Rome:

Spoiler :

It was unrealistic for me to get the wonders up in my other cities, just to prevent the priest pollution and whatnot... at least I am not THAT skilled yet. Getting the Stonehenge may have been a complete overkill though... again, I did NOT intend to build that! I just forgot to stop building it, because I fully anticipated the AI building it much sooner.... The Oracle sorta explains itself obviously... and as for the Pyramids... well... I went for it, considering that it is gonna be a long while until I start conquering somebody, only due to the fact that I am not located all that close to any AI... even Lizzy, the closest AI from me, is separated from me by the dense vastness of jungles, so early warring at this point is pointless. Rather than waiting all that time to conquer somebody (not knowing who is gonna build it anyway... and it seems 2 other unknown AIs are not on this continent), I decided to just self build it myself.

Now this place needs a Library... ASAP and start running scientists and maybe even an engineer. I don't think I need another Great Priest here...

Antium:

Spoiler :

Surely the location of this city may be questionable. The infamous one-off-the-coast location and all... For now though, this is gonna be my best commerce producing city, so I wanted to ensure that I grab as many riverside tiles as I could. And I wanted the cow in the 2nd ring, because it gives me hammer boost on a tile that is food positive, so getting stuff built here won't be as painful. I don't want to whip too much here, because I want to continually work the gold and even the floodplain cottage, so I thought having the cow worked in this city was important!

Cumae:

Spoiler :

And yet another questionable place for many, as a lot of people suggested settling elsewhere other than here. For me, this place is purely an early hammer producing city and nothing more. I am probably gonna grow this place to happy cap, and then just crank out workers and settlers from here, with occasional build of troops if necessary. It can grow to size 5 no problem and I don't need this place to grow any bigger than that. I need to expand west from here, and I believe that by settling here, I have better options for settling to the west, where the horse was also revealed.

But most importantly, this place got me to accelerate the production of the Pyramids sooner rather than later. I got the stone quarry online quite quickly too. ^_^

Known World in Zoomed Out View:

Spoiler :

Early warring is probably out of the question, simply due to the fact that there is still lot of unclaimed lands and I'd have to do more peaceful settling before I can get to somebody. Even Lizzy is a bit far off, with dense and vast jungles right in between. Going into the jungles at this point is waste of time right now and I have better lands to expand towards. The east... I am sure there is nobody to my east.

South:

Spoiler :

Only 1 city location available here, and I think this spot marks the X. I have Stonehenge so I don't have to worry about getting the clams in the first ring... besides it'd take some time to get the work boat built anyways. But this place is a very low priority place and probably will not be settled until much later.

North and East:

Spoiler :

I didn't do much exploring to the east, but to the north, I see only one desirable spot for me. I hate settling on top of a resource, but in this case, I think the red spot may be ideal if I want a riverside city with good commerce potential with a food resource available. I could settle 1W of the red square as well, at the expense of no fresh water bonus and being non-riverside.

That barbarian city by the other banana and the spices seem to be in a good location, so I think I will want to go there eventually and capture it! ^_^

West:

Spoiler :

First of all, just to make it clear, there are no sea foods anywhere near the horse, rice, and the corn by the coastal area.

I made some marks here for consideration... should be self explanatory. Too bad there isn't anything near the jumbos that make settling near there more attractive.... Probably too far away from me anyways.

1N of the horse is an interesting spot, but it is, one of those infamous 1-off-the-coast spot again... though it will grab horse, corn, and pigs, as well as 7 riverside tiles....

And then further to the west, which I will probably get beaten to by Lincoln, is a banana/rice spot.

Lots of jungles! Should Iron Working be my top priority?

End of turn set here. I am sure my set of play up to here would bring many constructive criticism and feedback. I played rather sloppily, putting in less than half of the effort that I put in while playing the Asoka game (much less microing and not as much care into it), so it probably shows. At any rate, this game is looking to become promisingly good and fun! Except for Monty, everyone else isn't too bad to have around... rather soft targets at that! ^_^

Can I reasonably still see the Praetorians in action in a reasonably soonish time frame I wonder...?

 

[Fippy]

The difference in time are few forests, not sure what's so hard to understand.
If you go only by hammers, you will not see the good plays and that always was a big problem here.

Anyways i know why i mostly stopped posting around here, too many use this place for analyzing this game to death..you guys stick with your super hero Sera, he will light your way.

 

[enKage]

1) You cannot settle on dyes - barb city to the north, but Prets can clear it
2) West: I like 2 cities there - riverside corn/ horses and GPP farm pigs/rice/banana/irrigated lakeside grasses

 

[Gwaja]

I btw. still don't get why "Brother Augustus" shouldn't visit "Sister Lizzy" with some "Nicetorians" and I btw. also don't know why "Brother Augustus" shouldn't pay a visit to the Oracle before building the Mids, or before letting his Sister Lizzy build them for her?

Praetorians are just fun. Playing as Rome without having to use these guys is just... BLEH! Considering the diplo situation and the location, Lizzy would have to be visited sooner than later... and a rather soft target at that! However...

Just a very small personal note on Aesthetics btw.: Augustus doesn't really need Aesthetics that much as his enemies which got visited by Bashertorians .

The jungles... I hate jungles. Why can't the game just give me grassland without having to chop them and getting no hammers in return like forests? ^_^ At any rate, I debated for a bit on whether to self tech Iron Working, but then I saw both Justinian and Lincoln already with it, so I decided not to. But I think I need it ASAP... I'd have preferred getting IW before Aesthetics honestly...

 

[Gwaja]

1) You cannot settle on dyes - barb city to the north, but Prets can clear it
2) West: I like 2 cities there - riverside corn/ horses and GPP farm pigs/rice/banana/irrigated lakeside grasses

1) Yep, of course... assuming the barbarian city is at a suboptimal location, it would have to be razed and then the dye can be settled.. otherwise, it is plan B.

2) Pretty cool suggestion. I think I like that too.

 

[Seraiel]

1200 AD victory is asking a lot though... even for a Deity player playing on Immortal! ^_^

840 AD Standard / Normal / Deity

The difference in time are few forests, not sure what's so hard to understand.
If you go only by hammers, you will not see the good plays and that always was a big problem here.

Anyways i know why i mostly stopped posting around here, too many use this place for analyzing this game to death..you guys stick with your super hero Sera, he will light your way.

The difference in time is not right, because then those Hammers could already be Earlytorians.

 

[Killroyan]

1 vote for settling the GP in the capital. Especially if you switch to rep. This capital just screams wonder whoring and with the extra hammers from the GP that would make it a lot easier. The extra gold and beakers will also bring in more then theology if you ask me. Justinian has buddhism so you could save it maybe for the shrine but then you have to conquer him.

 

[chessplaya]

I don't understand at all why you thought farming pigs is better than farming wet corn. The number of worker turns is the same, the commerce is the same for most turns because you can work the unimproved pig, and the food is 2 less for the next 11 turns! The only reason you might consider farming the pigs at all (but after the first settler!) is if you planned to avoid AH to get the Oracle techs faster, which you didn't do. The point of BW before AH is to build chop and/or whip your first settler out at size 2 or 3 (Aren't you IMP even? I forgot about that in my other post. IMP makes BW before AH a no-brainer if you have somewhere good to put the second city that doesn't require AH, and maybe you should grow to size 4 for a quick 90 hammer 2-pop whipped settler).

Other than that, your situation looks great. Stonehenge is a strong wonder if you can actually secure it, and you were lucky to get a late Oracle (again) plus relatively early Mids. Your second city is definitely in the right spot assuming that you can manage the barbs without first-ring copper, and it's fine to build cottages there since the city has cows for food. The only thing I don't understand is why you care about Aesth--I think you should be putting beakers into Alpha to secure a MC=Alpha+IW trade. I thought you wanted to Praet stomp? It's somewhat to your advantage if the AIs that you attack get MC because some of their cities will come with forges when you capture them. You might need to settle a city for iron so it will be much more important to figure out where that will be instead of building a library with only 3 cities.

 

[gspchamp999]

75 BC shadow. No oracle.

Spoiler :

Techs: Agri, BW, TW, AH, Myst, Masonry, Writing, Aest, trades for alpha, math, backfill, tech Literature, Currency

Great Library built this turn. Still a lot of expanding to do.

Screen Shots

Spoiler :