Game of thrones: Final Season: Winter finally arrives....

[rah]

The problem with dany's descend is that it's too abrupt and excessive. For 7 seasons she was portrayed as someone who had a vicious streak and was maybe too fond of the trappings of power,

how can you say for 7 seasons and claim too abrupt. They've been foreshadowing it all along. You just were just fooled by her occasional touches of mercy.

 

[AdamCrock]

I strongly disagree with You @MaryKB , You say that everything that Jon has done isn't making him worthy of leadership I say everything he has ever done was for his people as well as the living in general. Nothing that he has done was for selfish reasons and that is in my eyes very definition of what leadership should be. Circei on the other hand act only for selfish reasons - She has said so herself to that sparrow nun (which Mountain have later tortured and executed). She has confessed that she done all the horrible things she's done because it "felt good" . In my eyes that's the very definition of what leadership shouldn't be.

 

[rah]

It's always entertaining hearing different people react to the same material. There is no real right or wrong but we're all impacted by are life experiences and react differently.

 

[Fippy]

100% agree

And one other annoying char (but good actor) joffrey

I actually liked Joffrey (for fitting into the story and atmo), chars like him are important for any show with..let's say bad intentions. Very satisfying when they die
Reason why i added Ramsay i.e. is that i did not like that part much for it's story value, compared to how much time they spent there.

 

[Kyriakos]

Ramsay was still not nearly as comical/cringeworthy as Euron, whose entirely show plotline makes no sense.

 

[rah]

That was one loose end on Euron. In one scene we're told that Yara reclaimed the Iron Islands for Dany. You would think that would be something that Euron wouldn't have standed for and gone back and reclaimed them. Seemed a bit inconsistent.

 

[MaryKB]

I strongly disagree with You @MaryKB , You say that everything that Jon has done isn't making him worthy of leadership I say everything he has ever done was for his people as well as the living in general. Nothing that he has done was for selfish reasons and that is in my eyes very definition of what leadership should be. Circei on the other hand act only for selfish reasons - She has said so herself to that sparrow nun (which Mountain have later tortured and executed). She has confessed that she done all the horrible things she's done because it "felt good" . In my eyes that's the very definition of what leadership shouldn't be.

I don't deny for one moment Jon means well, and he wants good things for people, but he's unable to deliver on that. Effective leadership isn't about what your intentions are, but rather what results you get. Jon gets credit for other peoples' accomplishments ... especially women.

Tywin Lannister was a very effective leader, and he cared only about his own legacy. But as Aerys' Hand he lead the kingdom to prosperity and peace.

Dany's intentions are even better than Jon's, except unlike him she actually has helped many people and won many victories. Sansa also cares very much for her people, but again unlike Jon she's intelligent and effective.

Jon totally means well, but he's an idiot who makes things worse.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

One of my worst fears has come true: The season is too short to be satisfying.
They screwed the finale up the second it was decided that there will only be 6 episodes.
Dany's descent into madness and villainy was foreshadowed a few times, but when she finally snapped it was too abrupt and handled very stupidly.
There should have been at least one episode between Missandei's and Rhaegal's death and...this.
No, not this.
This was a senseless massacre that began after the city surrendered. She could have taken the win, or she could have made a beeline to the Red Keep and burned Cersei after the bells rang. This was just stupid.
And congratulations for making Jaime's character development and one of the best redemption arcs I've ever seen completely pointless.

 

[Colon]

how can you say for 7 seasons and claim too abrupt. They've been foreshadowing it all along. You just were just fooled by her occasional touches of mercy.

As I said in the part of the sentence you left out of your quote: "but who was fundamentally an ethical person."
And there's big gap between the prior occassional harshness and the senseless genocide she committed this episode.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I'm not sure if you're reading anything I wrote ... she can't win. She's not going to be allowed to win, it's going to be stolen from her for someone unworthy. She's through doing what Tyrion wants her to do, she came to break the wheel and change the system, and that's exactly what she did, the only way she can, by destroying it.

It's totally necessary, because that world won't allow a woman to win.

Sounds right to me.

Accepting the surrender would have been a slow death for her if anyone takes the time to envision that future.

Add in the fact that all the people who Dani wouldn't be able to face if she was a monstrous tyrant all died, and it makes sense to go the path of fear.

The only one who could have made a last minute save was Jon, but he flinched from the kiss because of the aunt thing.
Sigh, northerners.

Of course Jon is a loser.
He has won 1 battle total, and every decision after that has been real questionable.

 

[rah]

What can I say? A lot of people saw it coming so there had to be something there prior. Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation.
I will agree that with only 6 episodes this season, it was hard to pace the decent into madness perfectly, but it was telegraphed many times.

 

[aelf]

But it was unnecessary. She had already won. The bells rang. But at least she wasn't the only one. Grey Worm was equally mad.
I think she betrayed her own principles which is a shame that the writers went in that direction.

Nope. I agree with the idea that Dany knows she can't win a popularity contest because she is a woman and she's seen as a foreigner. As she says, she can't be loved, so she has to be feared. This one is set up very clearly and well.

Of course, this won't end well for her. The 'twist', though it makes sense in story and character terms, will serve to further develop Jon's story and character, who is indeed a useless white male. I liked Jon and it was great that he was resurrected. But the experience didn't seem to have improved him and he's done stupid for too long.

What gives anyone, in real life or a character in a story, the justification to slaughter innocent people in order to create a 'better' world? We do not live in a perfect world, that is true, but no one has the right to change it through mass genocide. I don't care how noble the cause is, killing is wrong.

This isn't the real world. It's a fantasy and could end anyway the authors want.

That happened in World War 2, the world's last righteous war. Real life is like that.

Humans are just numbers in the great machine that most of us willingly submit to.

 

[rah]

My response was more about the sexist aspect and not the slaughter of innocent people aspect.

And as a lifelong manager I've learned that it's better to motivate with beer and not fear. Since if you use fear you have to continually watch them instead of trust them which is just way too much work so should be used only as a last resort. But will agree with you 100% that she's in last resort mode in this case.
And I thought they built that up pretty good. But when the bells rung, I'm sure most viewers were hoping that Dany would be satisfied. I do think her not being makes for a better story and will make the last episode be a tad more interesting.

 

[AdamCrock]

Personaly I think that "effective" and "compasionate" (I would describe Jon as such) are two different leader traits . I ask myself if I'd rather have "effective" tyrant like Circei or "compasionate" leader like Jon. I would choose Jon every time.

He's not a bad fighter (though odds were always against him), He isn't a good strategist but he can improve.

As for Dany well... she was good I really really loved her character. I hoped for the best but foresaw the worst.

 

[civvver]

I don't deny for one moment Jon means well, and he wants good things for people, but he's unable to deliver on that. Effective leadership isn't about what your intentions are, but rather what results you get. Jon gets credit for other peoples' accomplishments ... especially women.

Tywin Lannister was a very effective leader, and he cared only about his own legacy. But as Aerys' Hand he lead the kingdom to prosperity and peace.

Dany's intentions are even better than Jon's, except unlike him she actually has helped many people and won many victories. Sansa also cares very much for her people, but again unlike Jon she's intelligent and effective.

Jon totally means well, but he's an idiot who makes things worse.

Really? Dany's intentions are the best? Why does she even want the iron throne? She wants it simply out of pride. She's always been very arrogant, which we like about her, it's not the worst trait as she backs it up. She hadn't been in the seven kingdoms since she was an infant. But she always said while in essos that she wanted to take back what was hers. Again why? Were the people suffering that much under the lannisters? Ok, we kind of get the impression they are in the riverlands, cus Tywin let Gregor and a bunch of lannister lads rape and pillage. There was that one farmer guy Arya and the Hound found that said at least under the Tully's their was rule of law. But in general, it's not like Essos where Danerays was freeing slaves. She had a very noble purpose in slaver's bay, freeing all the persecuted and later establishing law and order so the oppressed wouldn't just turn the tables on the oppressors. But how is she going to make Westeros better? She just wants it out of pride.

And Cersei is completely evil. Even as a child. She was incredibly cruel to Tyrion and others then. Jamie I don't think is evil at his core in the same way, but justifies his evil actions because of her.

I don't think Dany is going mad in the same way as her father, she's just grief stricken losing her two closest friends in Misande and Jorah, she feels betrayed by her love as well as her two remaining advisers, and she wants revenge. That was her vengeance. She shouldn't have burned the city though. If anything just the red keep. Whatever. We'll see what happens next, if Jon truly abandons her and if she full scale loses it.

 

[civvver]

Personaly I think that "effective" and "compasionate" (I would describe Jon as such) are two different leader traits . I ask myself if I'd rather have "effective" tyrant like Circei or "compasionate" leader like Jon. I would choose Jon every time.

He's not a bad fighter (though odds were always against him), He isn't a good strategist but he can improve.

As for Dany well... she was good I really really loved her character. I hoped for the best but foresaw the worst.

No one in game of thrones is really a good strategist except for Robb back in the day. Pretty much every other battle is just people charging each other and dying lol. Though the defense of kings landing by Tyrion was clever, it wasn't exactly battle strategy. Stannis was supposed to be a fantastic commander but he got charged straight up at winterfell and we never got to see his whole army in action. Tywin was supposed to be good but Robb kept whooping him. Jamie only had that one siege/non siege of riverrun. Jon, well he keeps charging blindly at opponents. Dany, she relies more on her dragons, though her tactics might be the best in the open field with dothraki charging and attack from above. Ramsey, just relied on instigating Jon to charge him blindly and having more men. The wildings charged castle black without a huge plan. So idk, it's not really a strategic show.

 

[rah]

Vayrs message that he sent right before his death, probably outs Jon as the true heir.
When that becomes public, Dany goes even farther over the edge and Jon will be forced to act. He will have the total support of Tyrion and Ayra after what they witnessed. I assume Grey Worm will stay loyal, but we'll see now that his blood lust has been probably satisfied.

 

[Colon]

What can I say? A lot of people saw it coming so there had to be something there prior. Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation.
I will agree that with only 6 episodes this season, it was hard to pace the decent into madness perfectly, but it was telegraphed many times.

It's the speed with which it happens that's exactly the problem. She spent years on volume 3-4 and it got dialed up to 11 in the space of a couple of episodes. It's not because the outcome had been telegraphed in advance than the manner in which it happens is irrelevant. This is the same woman who voluntarily locked her dragons into a cellar because they killed a single child, unconsciously convinced Jorah to switch sides, and ordered both Ironborn and the Dothraki to cease their pillaging ways. To dismiss such past acts of goodness as a ruse is much too easy.

 

[rah]

You seem to be ignoring how many she has killed. Those crucified, those executed by dragon fire, and all those her troops have killed. All the dothraki leaders in the tent. Not all the masters killed along the way were necessarily evil. But again, there were only 6 episodes left, what were they supposed to do? .

 

[Kyriakos]

Cercei's death was certainly very underwhelming.