Game of thrones: Final Season: Winter finally arrives....

[Kyriakos]

I haven't and won't read the leaks, but they're most likely true...The whole "filming multiple endings" thing would just take too much money and it doesn't make much sense...The leaks are legit...

Well, if the leaked plot of episode6 is true, prepare for something more stupid than usual

That said, it may be false. It doesn't mention the dragon at all, nor Greyworm (maybe Grey just commits suicide though, would be convenient).

 

[Akka]

I thought it was pretty clear that it was partially premeditated (the "mercy for descendents" line and her growing anger that people didn't love her, the thing she craved) and partly that the surrender came too easy

"too easy" ?
She destroyed :
- The whole Iron Fleet.
- All the wall defenses.
- The entire Golden Company.
What was "too easy" was that Drogo was suddenly able to do this in two minutes (while two dragons couldn't do much damage to the army of the dead, oopsie that's lack of consistency once again), but at the time the Lannister troops surrendered, it was because their forces had been more or less obliterated (without doing any damage to their foes, and with the dragon looming close by).
The surrender was perfectly understandable (one of the actual logical element of the episode).

 

[Fippy]

Agree with Akka, no obvious reason was given for her seeing red.
A good solution would be that Drogo felt her rage, and since Dragons are not supposed to care much for other people than her, he went on killing spree.
+ he saw the other Dragon shot down by humans.

If Dany was in control of Drogo, and decided it's time for everybody to die cos nobody loves her etc, that would be a disappointing conclusion for me.
As mentioned, she still often showed her good side before, and already had her revenge by burning all that Akka listed.
+ she had Cersei close instead, who should be her real target.

 

[Kyriakos]

I think it is impossible - again - for Dany burning KL to be a D&D plot. It is most likely GRRM's plot (which doesn't matter, cause he won't be ever writing those books).
D&D are just guilty of not making the progression flow more, but the end point seems to be GRRM.

I liked Dany burning KL. Because now she is an arch-enemy. Of course it doesn't mean that much, given there is only one ep left.

 

[rah]

Yeah, if she doesn't burn KL then the final episode is just one big kumbaya. This way there's still some tension and plot to be resolved.

 

[Akka]

The problem isn't that the end points reached by the serie in themselves are bad, it's that the way to reach these end points and how these points are presented are stupid and distort logic and characters.

 

[Kyriakos]

At least there was enough time for fan-service, eg Jaime&Brienne

 

[MaryKB]

I feel what's really tragic is how so many people refuse to try to see how a big element here is women's issues, I'm frankly quite disturbed with just how easily so many of you are brushing it aside and saying things like "That can't possibly be a logical reason for her deep anger and frustration."

I think this actually ends up being a very interesting and tragic story now. You have seven seasons of Daenerys working very hard and fighting an endless uphill battle (and constantly winning despite an entire world set out to stop her), and when she reaches this point where she should be hailed as the savior of Westeros and the best choice for ruler, it's going to be stolen from her and given to some guy solely because he has male body parts. She even tries to work things out with him, but he spurns her, and she doesn't see a way out of her trap.

So she goes mad and burns the world. Does she commit a horrendous crime? Certainly. She's a tragic character, but I feel her story makes complete perfect sense to me ... just because you can't see it or relate to it doesn't mean it's there. Do you consider even such a possibility that the failure could be on your part and not the show's creators here?

Her motivations don't have to be something that a man can relate to or understand.

 

[rah]

Everyone is entitled to interpret the show through their own lenses.

 

[MaryKB]

We're not talking about the common people, we're talking about Varys, Tyrion, Jon, et al.

Varys explicitly tells Tyrion having man parts is important.

Your point is totally nonsensical to me. They've been living through years of brutal war, her destroying a few of their brutalizers isn't some sort of new threat to them.

 

[rah]

All she has to do is take Jon for his word. And they've spent 7 years showing that Jon is a man of his word. Many instances that she has observed (the meeting with Cersei comes to mind)
Her not believing him is on her. It's her lack of trust.

 

[Arwon]

So she goes mad and burns the world. Does she commit a horrendous crime? Certainly. She's a tragic character, but I feel her story makes complete perfect sense to me ... just because you can't see it or relate to it doesn't mean it's there. Do you consider even such a possibility that the failure could be on your part and not the show's creators here?

I'm not sure that a medieval ruler's conquest being brutal and going badly for the conquered civilians even needs to be seen as particularly "mad" or even unusual. It's made clear that she sees the populace as owing her loyalty when she blames them for not overthrowing the existing monarchy. And it's also clear that she understands she can no longer claim power through popular acclaim. The logical thing to do at that point, if you're fixated on claiming rule regardless, is to terrorise the population so thoroughly that they do submit, and making sure the power base of the enemy is fully destroyed.

In some ways this was pretty much a Nagasaki situation - turning a conditional surrender offer into unconditional surrender via the unilateral use of nukes.

 

[Colon]

The problem isn't that the end points reached by the serie in themselves are bad, it's that the way to reach these end points and how these points are presented are stupid and distort logic and characters.

There's the levels of pointlessness and shortcuts too. Take the Jaime narrative. He tries to get into the Red Keep but fails, and goes to the secret passage instead. He shouldn't have known how to enter it from beneath the castle because Tyrion only told him where the upper entrane was. However, if he hadn't gone through the passage, we wouldn't have had the fight with Euron, who just happens to stumble on Jaime there. So, he goes to the passage, we have the fight, and despite the injuries Jaime suffered he still manages to climb the stairs to the castle. And despite Euron proclamation of having killed him, Jaime dies when the ceiling caves in. So, what was the point of the fight with Euron? I'm guessing it was to further delay Jaime, so he would be too late getting Cersei out. Which was necessitated by the fact that Daenarys didn't fly straight to the Red Keep to kill Cersei for vague reasons.

 

[aelf]

We're not talking about the common people, we're talking about Varys, Tyrion, Jon, et al.

Varys explicitly tells Tyrion having man parts is important.

Your point is totally nonsensical to me. They've been living through years of brutal war, her destroying a few of their brutalizers isn't some sort of new threat to them.

Yeah, I don't know everyone suddenly decides that what the people think matter in this show. When Dany's rule in Mereen was threatened, it was because of the disaffected nobility, not the people who were happy to be rid of their oppression. It only ended when she killed all the slave owners. The show has always been about the lords and the power players (clue is in the title again). And they're certainly not as ignorant of who Dany is. They don't support her because of other reasons, not because they have no idea what she's done - heck, maybe it's because of what's she's done.

 

[MaryKB]

A few? Dany is singlehandedly responsible for the murder of over half a million people in like a month's time. People aren't terrified of her vagina, they're terrified of burning alive. The last time someone threatened that many people in Westeros, they were a man and they were killed for it.

Her massacre at King's Landing is after she's being betrayed, that's her reaction, not what caused her people to cheat her.

 

[AdamCrock]

For me it doesn't matter if someone has male parts or female parts. It doesn't even matters from what family he or she hails from. Deeds and character is what matters.

... "and nothing else matters"

In GoT my favourite characters are Dany, Tyrion Lannister, Lady Brianne of Tart ? (not sure if it's spelled Tart) and Jon Snow (in that order) because despite everything they stayed true to themselves and I would say they are good people. I would include Sir Jaime into the mix but he's a shifter - he does horrible things for Cirsey (I've always called her Circei but nvm. ) and maybe he is sorry and has reflections but he is addicted to her - I wouldn't call that love - only unhealthy addiction.

 

[ulyssesSgrant]

The only reason people cheated her in the first place was because they were worried she would do something truly horrible. You need a bit of that crazy to establish power for yourself, but they were right to question if she was a little too hungry for it. It goes without say that they have been foreshadowing this and repeatedly shown she has it in her.

People choosing Jon over Dany you could argue is in part due to man parts, but there are many other reasons and interpretations too, with regard to his character and his accomplishments/reputation in Westeros.

That being said, I agree with @MaryKB in the sense that I found her descent totally believable and tragic. Maybe it would have been enough to keep her from tipping if people just believed in her, and maybe they would have believed in her more if she was a man. I think there is total legitimacy to the woman’s issues interpretation, but for me there are many other factors that played into her descent, the obvious tragedies that she suffered and what not. We should also remember it's not that weird to sack a city to establish yourself as the new ruler.

 

[civvver]

The discussion about man parts was in regard to producing heirs. Which is a huge deal for succession and legacy. Danerys claims she cannot have children at all. So that's why it's prominent, not just cus they like men more. Danerys in the past let khal drogo execute her brother in a fairly barbaric way, she torched mirraz the witch lady, she locked varros or whatever his name was in qath in a vault with her previous servant to die a horrible death of suffocation or starvation in total darkness, she nailed a bunch of slave owners to crosses, then she executed a slave guy who rebelled against the harpies, she fed some of the masters to her dragons, she burned tarly and his son, against advice from tyrion. So we have a pretty good history of her being ruthless. Sure many of those people deserved it, but even so the methods, burning mirraz at the steak essentially, melting her brother's face off, burning people. Tyrion and varys saw her burn tarly. That's probably when varys thought oh crap unchecked she's gonna burn innocent people eventually.

 

[Fippy]

Sorry but i see no women issues here, one evil does not make another legitimate.
Using a real life example, if a woman gets abused for years in really bad ways, and then decides to murder men she becomes a mass murderer, and should be punished without mercy as well.
While those cases might be tragic, making excuses for them would be totally disrespectful towards her victims.

Translating this to GoT, sure Cersei = evil.
Dany = evil if she had control over Drogo.
Naturally as mass murderer

 

[rah]

But up to this last point, it was easier to forgive Dany for some of those 'questionable' episodes due to her circumstances. Most rulers will display some ruthlessness in order to stay a ruler. But wholesale slaughter of KL changed the equation for me.