[RD] Games as a Service

[Timsup2nothin]

Is the steam DRM really that bad? It's bothered me a grand total 0 times. The only DRM that ever bugs me is if a game ever has any DRM on top of that.. I eventually stop playing games like that

I dunno. Do you mind being forced to open a third party storefront just to play a game from Bethesda Softworks? If you somehow find that "unobtrusive" then Steam is not bad as DRM goes.

It's funny to me how "WTF why should I have to dig out the installation disk just to play when the game is already installed!!!!" was such a rallying cry against DRM, but "well, I like Steam so it isn't bad being forced to open their storefront even when I'm not shopping" causes no distress.

 

[Gorbles]

Is the steam DRM really that bad? It's bothered me a grand total 0 times. The only DRM that ever bugs me is if a game ever has any DRM on top of that.. I eventually stop playing games like that

It doesn't have to be bad in terms of performance, or UX or something, to be DRM. DRM is inherently anti-consumer, regardless of how paletteable it may be. I use it, accept it(s existence), and still recognise that in essence it takes away control from the end user.

It's just weird than whenever takes a flatly negative stance on DRM through Steam, it really comes up against opposition. I'm not picking on Senethro, they're just in the unfortunate position of replying a lot along that line here. It's a very common thing to push back on, because Valve are apparently uniquely exempt from criticism for reasons I can't quite figure out. The weird thing is that when literally any other company uses DRM, it's seen as the devil (some are functionally horrific pieces of software software, that's a fact, but often conspiracy theories about DRM performance are just wishful thinking. They're all still DRM, though, which is Tim's core point). That's the dissonance that I've been trying to push back on. Tim's point is different to mine - he opposes DRM entirely. I simply understand his view, and accept it as entirely reasonable (not saying you're not).

Steam bothered me because throughout the entirety of uni, when Internet for me was spotty, Steam's Offline Mode was atrocious. It forced online validation of every single game to run it later in Offline Mode. And it kept asking for this whenever Steam was restarted. I haven't had this problem with other DRM; with other software platforms. But that doesn't matter to simply pointing out the existence of DRM and whom it ultimately benefits.

I can argue, perhaps persuasively, that some companies do actually benefit in preventing piracy for the few several weeks of sales (when sales are most important). I think such a technology could be situationally useful in that context, for a company whose profit margins are incredibly slim (I know and follow a lot of indie developers). But I also think developers at larger companies are grossly underpaid and senior management rake in the financial benefit that DRM affords a company, so to me it isn't really doing the best job on the whole.

 

[warpus]

I dunno. Do you mind being forced to open a third party storefront just to play a game from Bethesda Softworks? If you somehow find that "unobtrusive" then Steam is not bad as DRM goes.

Why would I mind? My steam app is open at all times, is non-intrusive if I don't want it to be in my face, and is not a memory hog. It's literally not a problem in any way for me.. and.. the only things I could say about it is that it's a convenience.

It doesn't have to be bad in terms of performance, or UX or something, to be DRM. DRM is inherently anti-consumer, regardless of how paletteable it may be. I use it, accept it(s existence), and still recognise that in essence it takes away control from the end user.

I mean, yeah, of course it takes away some control from the end user, it's DRM. I don't see how it affects me negatively in this case. It's only ever a problem when the devs or gaming studio make it annoying. Which some do..

If you are conceptually against the idea of DRM in the first place then that's another matter.

From where I'm sitting, if it's "anti-consumer".. I look over to my library of 700+ games I wouldn't have had without this thing.. and.. I'm a consumer.. getting benefits.. and.. .. so..

On top of that I can easily shut down steam and play my installed games by running the .EXE files. They don't really go out of their way to make things annoying for you. In fact, they make it easy for you to install an older version of the game and copy it elsewhere if you want to.

I understand the general dislike for DRM, but without it something like steam would have never taken off the ground. The gaming companies/studios needed something too, it can't just be all about is. It's a compromise, and it affects me negatively in exactly 0 ways. So I don't care.. why would I?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It's funny. I've been through a lot of variations of DRM and I mostly took a "live and let live" stance. The various levels of intrusiveness made no difference, since in the US it is legal to strip the DRM off of software you are properly licensed to use. The fact that some amount of money I was paying to stupid publishers was being pumped into developing their DRM that didn't really do anything didn't bother me. The fact that I was paying money to a stupid publisher that was handing over some amount of their well earned profits to Sony or whatever DRM developer they chose wasn't really something I took exception to. It was only when instead of various competitors they all started handing their money to Valve for "the great Steam best DRM money can buy...but by the way your customers will be forced to be our customers" that it really bothered me, because even if the DRM is stripped the damage is already done...you had to deal with Valve. I think the publishers were stupid to go along with that, and I think gamers were as well, because the consequences were predictable.

Valve monopolized publishers to force themselves on gamers, and monopolized gamers to force themselves on publishers. Even publishers that said "nah, DRM is pointless" got dragged to Steam because it became the only way to mass market to gamers.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Why would I mind? My steam app is open at all times, is non-intrusive if I don't want it to be in my face, and is not a memory hog. It's literally not a problem in any way for me.. and.. the only things I could say about it is that it's a convenience.

I have an app called "exploit me." It's really unobtrusive and takes very little memory. Can you think of any reason I shouldn't just go ahead and leave it open at all times?

I have an app called "mem waster." Not a really great app, since it only wastes a little, not a lot. I have some games that my system just meets the minimum requirements for, and even though they run fine for other people with the same hardware I can't seem to get them to work. Any suggestions what my problem might be?

By the way, both those apps are totally not "in my face" or anything...

 

[Gorbles]

I mean, yeah, of course it takes away some control from the end user, it's DRM. I don't see how it affects me negatively in this case. It's only ever a problem when the devs or gaming studio make it annoying. Which some do..

If you are conceptually against the idea of DRM in the first place then that's another matter.

From where I'm sitting, if it's "anti-consumer".. I look over to my library of 700+ games I wouldn't have had without this thing.. and.. I'm a consumer.. getting benefits.. and.. .. so..

On top of that I can easily shut down steam and play my installed games by running the .EXE files. They don't really go out of their way to make things annoying for you. In fact, they make it easy for you to install an older version of the game and copy it elsewhere if you want to.

I understand the general dislike for DRM, but without it something like steam would have never taken off the ground. The gaming companies/studios needed something too, it can't just be all about is. It's a compromise, and it affects me negatively in exactly 0 ways. So I don't care.. why would I?

To my knowledge, you can't always shut down Steam and play your installed games. As I understand it, that's actually the exception. I just tested using a game I've sunk hundreds of hours into - Borderlands 2. I get a modal window I really can't be bothered to screenshot that says "Steam must be running in order to launch Borderlands 2. Please restart Borderlands 2 after starting the Steam client". I enjoy Borderlands 2. But I can't run it without Steam. I believe even the disc version was a Steam install. Sure, this is just one example, but it's a high-profile example (Borderlands is a pretty popular franchise).

That said, I'm not forcing you to care. If you don't care, there's very little I can do to make you care. But in arguing that it's not anti-consumer you're investing yourself - that the opposite of uncaring. If you just didn't care and went about your way, that's fine as well. But you're attempting to say that and argue that it isn't anti-consumer . . . because it doesn't inconvenience you personally.

I've gone to great lengths in this thread to point out that it doesn't inconvenience me personally (anymore, at least). I'm a software developer transitioning to full-time working from home. I have a fibre optic line, way too many VPN clients (speaking of horrific software, that's another fun topic) and an I/O throughput I'm surprised hasn't killed my aging SSD yet. Steam running all the time is the least of my problems. But I recognise the problems inherent to it. It doesn't have to inconvenience me to do so.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I mean, I probably have sufficient hardware overpower that Steam running constantly in background would not give me any immediately adverse effects either. That doesn't mean I want to let Gabe Newell use my excess hardware free of charge to expand his business just because he's such a good guy.

And ultimately there are enough useless things that various people want to run in background on my machine that they cumulatively could cause me issues. When I start stamping them out why should Gabe Newell's store front be the exception?

 

[Takhisis]

I've re-bought a handful of games because the discs used SuckyROM/SafeDisc, which no longer works on Windows 10. The alternative is tracking down a modified executable, which is a minefield of its own.

Actually back then you could just use the widely-available unSafedisc programme which worked like a charm. LAN parties and gaming-exclusive netcafés would have been unworkable otherwise.

See above. I think the nonessential nature of DRM as opposed to operating systems actually makes for a stronger case. Microsoft presented an argument that was deemed at least partially valid at the time that their monopolization of the OS market was inherently positive in that it was beneficial to the infrastructure of communication. From that they claimed "natural fallout" to justify their attempts at further monopolization. As in, "oh we aren't trying to monopolize browsers, it just happens." Valve has no such defenses. Their monopolization of the DRM market and their monopolization of the distribution market exist in synergy, but neither is vital infrastructure and neither can be claimed as "natural fallout."

There is also the undisputed fact that Valve has absolutely no access to Microsoft's ultimate line of defense, critical industry. No aspect of government would be impacted in any way if Valve gets blown completely out of existence.

Uhm, I am specifically not defending Valve or (ugh!) DRM, but, well, in fact Microsoft is also infringing upon personal rights and abusing their monopoly on power by collecting information on people and so on. And it didn't ‘just happen’ that they monopolised browsers: they programmed their software to specifically block the competition.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

I have an app called "exploit me." It's really unobtrusive and takes very little memory. Can you think of any reason I shouldn't just go ahead and leave it open at all times?

I have an app called "mem waster." Not a really great app, since it only wastes a little, not a lot. I have some games that my system just meets the minimum requirements for, and even though they run fine for other people with the same hardware I can't seem to get them to work. Any suggestions what my problem might be?

By the way, both those apps are totally not "in my face" or anything...

I have an app on my computer to deliberately induce BSODs.

 

[Gorbles]

Uhm, I am specifically not defending Valve or (ugh!) DRM, but, well, in fact Microsoft is also infringing upon personal rights and abusing their monopoly on power by collecting information on people and so on. And it didn't ‘just happen’ that they monopolised browsers: they programmed their software to specifically block the competition.

For which they have received sustained articles, campaigns, EU rulings and pretty much everything inbetween as a consequence for said actions, to the extent that they actually changed a lot of what people complained about (in whichever issues of Windows it was an issue. I'm not being facetious, it was likely more than one).

I wish Steam had that kind of pressure on it. I wish Valve did.

 

[Takhisis]

I wish Steam had that kind of pressure on it. I wish Valve did.

Oh yes, definitely. +1.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Uhm, I am specifically not defending Valve or (ugh!) DRM, but, well, in fact Microsoft is also infringing upon personal rights and abusing their monopoly on power by collecting information on people and so on. And it didn't ‘just happen’ that they monopolised browsers: they programmed their software to specifically block the competition.

For which they have received sustained articles, campaigns, EU rulings and pretty much everything inbetween as a consequence for said actions, to the extent that they actually changed a lot of what people complained about (in whichever issues of Windows it was an issue. I'm not being facetious, it was likely more than one).

I wish Steam had that kind of pressure on it. I wish Valve did.

Gorbles with the smash down the line! POINT!!!

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

Steam running all the time is the least of my problems. But I recognise the problems inherent to it. It doesn't have to inconvenience me to do so.

It's somewhat tangential to the current argument since people aren't talking much about the reams of user data these companies rake in ("Blizzard wants photo ID? Screw that!"), but as a relative of mine put it: "In the war between convenience and security, convenience trumps every time."

 

[Takhisis]

"Blizzard wants photo ID? Screw that!")

vada f- and I'm already locked out of ranked matchmaking for DotA because I don't have a smartphone number to give them!

 

[warpus]

To my knowledge, you can't always shut down Steam and play your installed games. As I understand it, that's actually the exception. I just tested using a game I've sunk hundreds of hours into - Borderlands 2. I get a modal window I really can't be bothered to screenshot that says "Steam must be running in order to launch Borderlands 2. Please restart Borderlands 2 after starting the Steam client". I enjoy Borderlands 2. But I can't run it without Steam. I believe even the disc version was a Steam install. Sure, this is just one example, but it's a high-profile example (Borderlands is a pretty popular franchise).

Maybe I was wrong! I swear I used to do this with Kerbal before I realized you could just tell it to not auto update. So maybe it's game specific

That said, I'm not forcing you to care. If you don't care, there's very little I can do to make you care. But in arguing that it's not anti-consumer you're investing yourself - that the opposite of uncaring. If you just didn't care and went about your way, that's fine as well. But you're attempting to say that and argue that it isn't anti-consumer . . . because it doesn't inconvenience you personally.

I disagree with you because you seem to be saying that DRM is inherently anti-consumer. Surely it depends on the implementation and the context.

I'm a consumer and I'm winning right now. I bought my games really cheap, I can easily game wherever and whenever I want, and the convenience has never been better or hassle-free. It not only doesn't inconvenience me, it improves my gaming experience and my experience as a consumer. Given all that, I'm not going to get upset for ideological reasons. I do care, but I'm looking around and I'm seeing wins all around, and my experience as a gamer has never been better

I have an app called "exploit me." It's really unobtrusive and takes very little memory. Can you think of any reason I shouldn't just go ahead and leave it open at all times?

I have an app called "mem waster." Not a really great app, since it only wastes a little, not a lot. I have some games that my system just meets the minimum requirements for, and even though they run fine for other people with the same hardware I can't seem to get them to work. Any suggestions what my problem might be?

By the way, both those apps are totally not "in my face" or anything...

I can't follow any of your post. It's clear you're on some sort of a crusade. I'm just sitting here gaming

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Some Steam games you can move outside your Steam folder and play fine. But others are dependent on Steam's DRM.

 

[Takhisis]

Maybe I was wrong! I swear I used to do this with Kerbal before I realized you could just tell it to not auto update. So maybe it's game specific

Some Steam games you can move outside your Steam folder and play fine. But others are dependent on Steam's DRM.

^This. Of course, it takes a tiny bit of savvy and it appears that a lot of people who use a computer are really unsavvy enough to follow instructions such as ‘to update your system, download file X, install it into a flash drive and then restart the computer with the installer flash drive plugged in and let it just act on its own from there’.

 

[RobAnybody]

This is a fascinating discussion. I had no idea how I got suckered into dependency on Steam & what their ulterior motives were, but... I gotta admit... now... like, now... I'm a Steam supporter. Yay, Steam! That's me. I got Borged. No shame. I Borg.

I was a "Tim" for years. I hoarded my physical CD's across different PC's, for years! Anytime I had to buy a new PC I broke out the CD's & installed my favorite games.

But, here's where I relented.... I started getting multiple devices. I wanted to install Baldur's Gate 2 onto my tablet! I wanted to port all my Skyrim saves onto the new kick-ass computer I just bought. To give a recent anecdote, I was quarantined & felt like accessing my Pathfinder:Kingmaker save games & playing the Beneath the Stolen Lands DLC (great game, btw).

You know what allowed me to do that? The fact that Steam has all my games in a library where I can just click "Download".

I, RobAnybody, abrogate all my rights that Tim think's I shouldn't because Zombie Apocalypse Might Happen, to Steam, in exchange for being able to access my games on all my devices. Worth it!!

 

[Timsup2nothin]

This is a fascinating discussion. I had no idea how I got suckered into dependency on Steam & what their ulterior motives were, but... I gotta admit... now... like, now... I'm a Steam supporter. Yay, Steam! That's me. I got Borged. No shame. I Borg.

I was a "Tim" for years. I hoarded my physical CD's across different PC's, for years! Anytime I had to buy a new PC I broke out the CD's & installed my favorite games.

But, here's where I relented.... I started getting multiple devices. I wanted to install Baldur's Gate 2 onto my tablet! I wanted to port all my Skyrim saves onto the new kick-ass computer I just bought. To give a recent anecdote, I was quarantined & felt like accessing my Pathfinder:Kingmaker save games & playing the Beneath the Stolen Lands DLC (great game, btw).

You know what allowed me to do that? The fact that Steam has all my games in a library where I can just click "Download".

I, RobAnybody, abrogate all my rights that Tim think's I shouldn't because Zombie Apocalypse Might Happen, to Steam, in exchange for being able to access my games on all my devices. Worth it!!

New computer? Yeah, I didn't look for disks either but I did port most of my games by flash drive rather than downloading because it's just tons faster.
Install on multiple devices? Check, but I can even do that with devices that are not internet connected.
All my games in a library where I can just click download. Check, but again I can also port them by flash drive which is a whole lot faster.

Wow...guess what...I did all the same stuff and I don't have Steam App running because I don't have to put up with DRM to do any of those things, faster and better. So, why exactly are you so convinced that DRM is suddenly a good thing?

 

[Takhisis]

This is a fascinating discussion. I had no idea how I got suckered into dependency on Steam & what their ulterior motives were, but... I gotta admit... now... like, now... I'm a Steam supporter. Yay, Steam! That's me. I got Borged. No shame. I Borg.

I was a "Tim" for years. I hoarded my physical CD's across different PC's, for years! Anytime I had to buy a new PC I broke out the CD's & installed my favorite games.

But, here's where I relented.... I started getting multiple devices. I wanted to install Baldur's Gate 2 onto my tablet! I wanted to port all my Skyrim saves onto the new kick-ass computer I just bought. To give a recent anecdote, I was quarantined & felt like accessing my Pathfinder:Kingmaker save games & playing the Beneath the Stolen Lands DLC (great game, btw).

You know what allowed me to do that? The fact that Steam has all my games in a library where I can just click "Download".

I, RobAnybody, abrogate all my rights that Tim think's I shouldn't because Zombie Apocalypse Might Happen, to Steam, in exchange for being able to access my games on all my devices. Worth it!!

Moderator Action: This is an RD thread. A lot more than a quote and a meme are required to post here. ~ Arakhor