[RD] Games as a Service

[Senethro]

I didn't say they were wrong. Just mislead. Anyone who buys into the BS that Steam is, or ever was "by gamers, for gamers," I do say is being mislead.

Never even heard this statement. Means nothing to me and I don't get why it spooks you so. Looks like a personal grudge.

Mostly that is a willful thing, of the "I have made Steam the core of my gaming and have to act like it wasn't all just a misunderstanding on my part" variety.

I've been trying to hint to you that there isn't a misunderstanding taking place. People are buying what Steam is selling and deception is not required.

I hate arguing with people like them, ie you, because you inevitably will take it personally and think that lashing out is called for.

Projection much?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

People are buying what Steam is selling and deception is not required.

I know. The market for DRM is pervasive as hell, ain't it?

 

[warpus]

LOL...the pirates grew up. There weren't any forty year old adult gamers just buying their games when there weren't any forty year old gamers. Of course there are more paying customers now. Steam didn't do that.

Valve's goal was to drive all other legal distribution out of business. They've never had anything to do with piracy, other than it being the bogey man that they used to whip their customers into supporting their efforts to corner the distribution market.

I would bet there were a lot more kids pirating games in the 90s than today in terms of the % of the whole gaming market. If a kid can drop $2k on a gaming pc money will be spent on games too, usually. In the 90s it was easier to join an "underground" BBS and get virus-free "warez". These days you have to be a bit more knowledgeable, you can't just log in, download, and install blindly like in the 90s.

Maybe converting pirates wasn't a specifically stated goal of the company, but they sure attracted a bunch of people from that camp.

Anyhow, I don't really get why it's important to argue about these minor points. You either buy into the service or you don't. It's cool either way, if you don't like the platform or don't want to support it, or whatever, that's none of my business, I'm never going to try to convince you that you're wrong. I am just doing me

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I would bet there were a lot more kids pirating games in the 90s than today in terms of the % of the whole gaming market. If a kid can drop $2k on a gaming pc money will be spent on games too, usually. In the 90s it was easier to join an "underground" BBS and get virus-free "warez". These days you have to be a bit more knowledgeable, you can't just log in, download, and install blindly like in the 90s.

Maybe converting pirates wasn't a specifically stated goal of the company, but they sure attracted a bunch of people from that camp.

Anyhow, I don't really get why it's important to argue about these minor points. You either buy into the service or you don't. It's cool either way, if you don't like the platform or don't want to support it, or whatever, that's none of my business, I'm never going to try to convince you that you're wrong. I am just doing me

In the 90s those kids pirating games were the whole gaming market. Most of it anyway. In more recent times...I bought my kids games because I had been and really still was a gamer, so yeah they had no inclination to piracy.

And nobody needed to convince me I was wrong...Valve just put the distributors I preferred over them out of business, for the most part. Using deceptive marketing practices to do it. I accept that as part of life, but I don't have to like it.

 

[warpus]

I can sure understand your position better now that I know that.

And that was my point. Pirates used to make up a much larger part of the market. Now they don't. There's been a shift

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I can sure understand your position better now that I know that.

And that was my point. Pirates used to make up a much larger part of the market. Now they don't. There's been a shift

That shift was gonna happen without having Valve nearly corner the market on distribution of games. It was just simple demographics.

 

[Senethro]

In the 90s those kids pirating games were the whole gaming market. Most of it anyway.

And nobody needed to convince me I was wrong...Valve just put the distributors I preferred over them out of business, for the most part. Using deceptive marketing practices to do it. I accept that as part of life, but I don't have to like it.

And you can't get the right kind of light bulbs any more either!

 

[Timsup2nothin]

And you can't get the right kind of light bulbs any more either!

I get it man...I offended your belief system. What can I do to get you past it?

 

[warpus]

That shift was gonna happen without having Valve nearly corner the market on distribution of games. It was just simple demographics.

I was never disputing any of that, so we're cool

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I was never disputing any of that, so we're cool

Yeah, not a problem between us at all.

The irritant of that point is that the growth of that market, while huge, was still somewhat strangled by Valve's attempt to monopolize it. It's funny...I was actually around for "man, home computers are so cheap that this whole 'gaming console' industry is just imploding." In a lot of ways Valve screwing up gaming for computers remade that market, which is mostly hilarious to me since their effort to penetrate that market I think was a bust.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I can sure understand your position better now that I know that.
And that was my point. Pirates used to make up a much larger part of the market. Now they don't. There's been a shift

Theres also now a large online / mobile and F2P gaming market
Game bundles, free giveaways, cheap cd keys sites
The gaming market has changed a lot since the old days, plus video games has grown a lot more main stream and much more competitive.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Theres also now a large online / mobile and F2P gaming market
Game bundles, free giveaways, cheap cd keys sites
The gaming market has changed a lot since the old days, plus video games has grown a lot more main stream and much more competitive.

And GoG demonstrating that you can compete in the digital download service business without artificially hyping publishers on the necessity of DRM in the world filled with vile pirates that doesn't actually exist. Gotta love that!

 

[Senethro]

I think gog is an instructive example. Outside of their retro market, they offer fewer services to gamers and devs than Steam and have fewer users.

Consider also if Valve “strangled” PC gaming, why didn’t Gog capture a larger portion of the market?

 

[Gorbles]

So whats your explanation for why Civ 5 has outsold the entire previous Civ series on Steam?

It does look to me like Steam has created consumers out of pirates. As a former habitual pirate myself and friend of about 10 similar, we all suddenly moved to Steam somewhere in the mid-2000s because a 1 click download was even easier than a 5 click download.

People will still pirate games for whatever reason they consider appropriate. Steam has dominance in the market - that's has a direct impact on number of sales for a product wholly released through Steam (as CiV was, as far as I'm aware). Steam's success is self-sustaining now, based on decisions they made back then (in the early-to-mid 2000s).

My reasons for abandoning piracy (slash never being a fan of it in the first place) was entirely moral, for example. I didn't move to Steam because I thought "hey, this is convenient" (it's also not one click, nor has it ever, because the purchase form alone hasn't really changed in years and is a multi-step process). I started using Steam because there was games on there I couldn't get without using Steam (ironically, the criticism people level at more modern competitors. But again, pushback against Steam for the same thing doesn't really materialise in popular gaming culture. It's for some reason accepted).

All of us can trade anecdotes until the world ends, right? Steam might've converted former habitual pirates into active consumers. It might not have. It might have done on a selective basis so long as the gamer in question didn't want to stick it to whatever developer or publisher. I don't really see it as relevant to the core argument of Steam being a DRM platform that exists to lock-in consumers as much as anyone claims its competitors do (which is the core dissonance that I'm trying to point out in my posts. I'm not trying to make the same arguments as Tim all the time, so I'm sorry for hijacking a bit there).

To take your latest post at the same time - Valve having market dominance (I prefer to use "monopoly", but that's an aside that tends to gets peoples' backs up, and might technically not be true given the past year or two market-wise) is exactly why such competitors can't capture more market share. They have to occupy niches (like GoG does, with its DRM-free approach - which will also come with caveats, mainly legal presumably, as well as patch / maintenance complications), or they have to forcefully compete (like Origin did with EA's own games, and like Epic is currently doing).

 

[civvver]

Because someday Steam will shut down and when that happens it won't be usable anymore

I don't see that happening. Maybe they stop adding features or whatever but it shouldn't be that difficult just to maintain it and the profit margins have to be huge.

The common complaint is that steam could just take all my games away. That's true. They could screw us all over and run.

I know that supposedly buried in the agreements somewhere it says you are just leasing games and yadda yadda, but I think if they ever took ALL the games away there would be a huge class action lawsuit. I know they have taken a few games away, but didn't they add them back and only remove them from the store for new purchase? I know of a few games that had persistent online requirements despite being basically single player offline games that are now not playable. But if this ever happens en masse there will be legal issues.

I mostly prefer steam because the performance is pretty decent. Origin takes forever to load and launch games, though I haven't used it in a while. But it did when I used it. Ubisofts seemed fine even though the UI was a little clunky but it only has a few titles I want on it so I don't use it for that reason. I haven't used the gog galaxy cus um why bother? Offline installers are way cooler and still my preferred option. I haven't used epic platform cus I haven't wanted anything on it yet. Twitch I only use cus of Twitch prime coming free with Amazon prime. The platform is fast and very lacking in features on the games platform side but I like it that way, just install your games and that's it. I don't know if they sell games actually, it might only be the freebies. I actually still use a browser for watching twitch, Idk why, I think some of the UI is slightly different.

Anyway I like most users use steam cus I know how to use it, familiarity, and it doesn't work poorly enough to force me to change. Like iPhones. I have always used one and I don't want to learn how to use an android at this point. Apple would have to screw something up badly to make me want to switch. Steam's same way.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't see that happening. Maybe they stop adding features or whatever but it shouldn't be that difficult just to maintain it and the profit margins have to be huge.

Valve benefits daily from having spent years operating in direct violation of anti-trust law. They got away with it because at the time "well, it's just games, no big deal" was a general state of mind. That state of mind is no longer as automatic as it was, and fades continuously in the face of the enormous money involved. When the Department of Justice finally got around to MIcrosoft and their deceptive monopolistic business practices Microsoft took a bit of a thump despite making the very valid argument that the US government including the Department of Defense runs on Microsoft are you really sure you want to do this? Microsoft's illegalities were pretty minor compared to Valve, and the same "well, it's just a game platform" that they sheltered behind initially will come full circle on them at that point because the feds will look at them as a company that can really just be blown completely out of existence with no major impact.

Not saying that is an inevitable outcome, but in legal terms it isn't really implausible. All it would really take is a US based competitor to file the lawsuit.

 

[Farm Boy]

And you can't get the right kind of light bulbs any more either!

Keeping the well from freezing did get to be a bigger pain in the ass. Bespoke heat lamps are stupid. Heating tape is stupid.

 

[warpus]

I know that supposedly buried in the agreements somewhere it says you are just leasing games and yadda yadda, but I think if they ever took ALL the games away there would be a huge class action lawsuit.

Yeah, but if Valve goes bankrupt and Gabe flees to North Korea, then the users would in the end get nothing.. probably.

So I can imagine a scenario in which we get screwed, but it doesn't seem likely. I also remember a time when I used to buy games on CD, DVD, and other media. Eventually those discs get scratched and you can't install your games anymore. So you spent $60 on a license to play the game, and now.. there is no way for you to even install it? And the only way for you to get the game again is to "pirate" it, after you already paid for the license?

So you see, I've already lost plenty of games in the past. I had a small collection of cool game boxes on my shelf, but over time the discs got misplaced or scratched or whatever. It's not really a great way to hold on to your games. You can make images of the discs and back them up somewhere, but I ain't got time for that nonsense, and I'm not even sure if that's legal. And I'm not even convinced most of those games would even install in windows 10 anymore.

Let's admit it.. when you used to buy a physical copy of the game, the whole thing was designed so that you could not easily get the game back if you lost or damaged the physical media. They want you to just buy a new copy when that happens. which is not right, because you're paying for the license to play the game, and not just for the physical media.

The new system is a lot better in that regard. I don't have to worry about my games disappearing unless there is a crisis and Valve goes boobs up or something. I am perfectly happy with this compromise

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Truth be told I have no problem with repurchasing games that I like. I didn't have a problem with it when it involved replacing a scratched disk and I don't have a problem buying games from GoG that I already have on disks (maybe, since I don't really look for the disks). If I get more than a thousand hours of play out of a game I don't begrudge the publisher and developer an extra sale.

 

[Lexicus]

Microsoft's illegalities were pretty minor compared to Valve,

I don't understand why you say this.

All it would really take is a US based competitor to file the lawsuit.

You think Biden or Trump is gonna appoint anyone to a court who gives a crap about effective antitrust enforcement? I sure don't.