[RD] Games as a Service

[Senethro]

This actually is the crux of the problem. There was a span of several years where this wasn't true, and only very very hard work made it not a permanent state of affairs. Valve created the environment "if you want to play games, you have no choice but Steam," and if they had their way that would still be the case now and into the future.

You're talking about "sequences of events" without being able to mention years, and "easily documented" evidence without reference to third parties or specific actions. Who do they deny access to or refuse to do business with?

Given that Steam does in fact sell games that run without their DRM, and also with other peoples DRM, doesn't that mean that their Store product and DRM product are not in fact compelled, Windows+IExplorer-style? Relatedly, Steamworks games are still sold as keys on other stores.

so once the legal machinery gets cranked around and aimed at them Gabe and the boys best be headed out of the country. All it takes is a US based digital distribution platform with some political heft behind them filing the lawsuit.

And this just reads as vengeance fantasy.

 

[Takhisis]

Daily reminder Gabe is expat Microsoft so the parallel is starting to make way too much sense.

Ehm, urm…

 

[Timsup2nothin]

.

You appear to have forgotten that your allotment of stupid questions was already used up.

Please don't quote me or ping me from this topic, since you have already made your "fan boy, will not have reasonable discussion" position abundantly clear.

 

[Takhisis]

Tim, um, in this thread and others I see you as recently having become too committed to your ‘flaming posters for idiocy’ gimmick as described in your signature. I myself have been the target of it. It's not good for you nor for the forum in general. It's a bad time for everyone with the pandemic and forced confinement on top of everything else, so the gimmick doesn't work.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Tim, um, in this thread and others I see you as recently having become too committed to your ‘flaming posters for idiocy’ gimmick as described in your signature. I myself have been the target of it. It's not good for you nor for the forum in general. It's a bad time for everyone with the pandemic and forced confinement on top of everything else, so the gimmick doesn't work.

It's not a gimmick. Don't be an idiot and it won't be your problem.

My bad. RD thread. Shouldn't have taken that bait. Can we continue this elsewhere?

 

[warpus]

You do know that GOG exists, right? It has thousands of games on it, some of them even quite recent, and their big selling point is that they have no DRM at all.

Clearly there is room in the marketplace for all sorts of game distributors, including GOG. I never disputed this.

So I'm having to explain why DRM is anti-consumer, despite several examples already given? Why?

We're talking about two completely different things. I am talking about Steam the platform and you are talking DRM *the concept*. You say DRM is inherently anti-consumer. My position is that context and implementation matter (quite a bit)

Yes, I understand that DRM puts limits on what you can do with the software. Has this affected me in any way in the last decade? No. The implementation does not seem very anti-consumer to me. If it was so anti-consumer, how come all the games I play allow mods, were sold to me for for the most part for a very cheap price, how come I can play them on whatever device I want, how come can I install it an infinite amount of times, how come can I copy the game files if I want, how come do I feel like this was a platform for gamers designed by gamers? and.. so many other positive things I am getting out of the experience.

If you want me to agree that DRM puts limits on what you can do with your software, then I'd be a fool to disagree. That's essentially what it's designed to do. If you want me to agree that my gaming experience is anti-consumer and has been for the last 10 years, then I can't agree because that would be a lie.

This actually is the crux of the problem. There was a span of several years where this wasn't true, and only very very hard work made it not a permanent state of affairs. Valve created the environment "if you want to play games, you have no choice but Steam," and if they had their way that would still be the case now and into the future.

But what about Gog? What about Epic games? What about standalone games you can still (I think) buy in stores? There seem to be so many gaming stores online where you can buy games. The options for gamers these days seem so much more incredible than what we had in the 90s.

What about all the indie studios that have popped up during this .. well.. gaming golden age? You can buy many of those games directly through the publisher. That's how I initially bought Kerbal Space Program. Then I was given the option of transferring my ownership license to a steam key.

Is it a problem? What's the alternative? How are you going to put up an online store selling games without DRM in a way that involves the major players? It seems to me that if this was possible people would be already doing it. Some online stores are doing that (I think), but they have fairly limited catalogs. That's because the major players, who own the rights to many of these games, will always insist on some sort of DRM to protect their intellectual property. If that wasn't the case, there would be no need to build a gaming platform w/ DRM in it. It's extra overhead

I remember being all outraged when companies started doing this stuff.. I have to install a thing to install my games?? It totally did not work with my 90s mindset and approach to gaming. You buy a game, you get a box, you put it on a shelf, you get a nice manual inside, and when the disk or CD gets destroyed you have to buy a new one.

I relucantly got a steam account many years later and have literally had zero problems. I now own 700 games. I can play them on my TV or computer or I can fly to Nepal and play my games there. . I don't have to bring anything and installation just takes a click. There's no way for my games to get corrupted and me having to pay for them again. I spend less money on my games than before.. There's only positives here from a consumer's point of view. The fact that I am technically not allowed to copy my game files or whatever does not matter to me at all. I don't have a need to do that, given how they've set everything up.

I've seen other DRM systems and I don't like them for the most part. There are several I quite hate and just stopped playing any of the games.. There are games you have to log into once you launch the game.. What? I stop playing games like that. That's way too obtrusive for a lazy gamer like me. Steam makes everything unobtrusive and easy. It's designed with the needs of the consumer in mind.

I will agree Steam is anti-a-small-subset-of-consumers-who-have-very-specific-gaming-needs-which-are-not-compatible-with-the-platform

For the rest of us it's awesome

 

[Synobun]

Tim, um, in this thread and others I see you as recently having become too committed to your ‘flaming posters for idiocy’ gimmick as described in your signature. I myself have been the target of it. It's not good for you nor for the forum in general. It's a bad time for everyone with the pandemic and forced confinement on top of everything else, so the gimmick doesn't work.

It's not a gimmick. Don't be an idiot and it won't be your problem.

Both of you need to update your signatures.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

But what about Gog? What about Epic games?

GoG entered a marketplace that Valve had reduced to a zero competition wasteland.

Epic games is a startup.

The fact that Valve's grip has slipped slightly does not justify a pretense that said grip never existed, or was ever justifiable.

 

[RobAnybody]

Which is why in my reply I didn't try to dis you back, I just pointed out that I have all the same advantages, plus more...without the DRM. Every advantage you pointed out is fundamental to digital distribution. The advantages of digital distribution are not in question, although people with limited access to the internet undoubtedly regret that those advantages have pushed all other options underwater. The question confronting your position is why do you associate the advantages of digital distribution as somehow being only available from Valve and justifying the downsides of the intrusive DRM that Valve applies?

I didn't mean to come across like I was trying to debate your position on Steam, just giving an account of how I went from "your side" to "liking Steam" & am completely indifferent to the DRM aspect (although I honestly had no idea about how insidious they were & how I'm like the poster boy for those who fell for it). But now that I am Borg, I like it, is all. In hindsight, I found resistance to be futile.

 

[Senethro]

You appear to have forgotten that your allotment of stupid questions was already used up.

Please don't quote me or ping me from this topic, since you have already made your "fan boy, will not have reasonable discussion" position abundantly clear.

Bear with me please, I intend to keep quoting you as its easier for any readers if I address your posts directly. Top gimmick btw.

 

[warpus]

GoG entered a marketplace that Valve had reduced to a zero competition wasteland.

Epic games is a startup.

The fact that Valve's grip has slipped slightly does not justify a pretense that said grip never existed, or was ever justifiable.

Okay so to be clear all my posts here so far revolve around another point, and not this one. I don't know much about the history of all that, so I'll assume you are right about it.

My point was only ever about the gamer's and consumer's point of view here and whether the steam platform is anti-us as claimed.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Okay so to be clear all my posts here so far revolve around another point, and not this one. I don't know much about the history of all that, so I'll assume you are right about it.

My point was only ever about the gamer's and consumer's point of view here and whether the steam platform is anti-us as claimed.

It is unlikely that Valve will ever say "wow, let's try to directly offend Steam users." That doesn't make them "pro-consumer." Gamers with less than ideal internet access are consumers, and there is no question that Valve is anti-them, always has been, and always will be. Consumers who use digital distribution platforms other than Steam are still consumers, and Valve has never disguised the fact that they are anti-them.

You do you, and I'm not trying to make you do otherwise, but I hope you recognize that your position is basically "well the bully doesn't pick on me so what they do is okay from where I stand."

 

[RobAnybody]

I think it comes down to how much you care about DRM. And maybe more importantly what types of it you've experienced. I remember one of those Gold Box D&D video games from ages ago (Pool of Radiance? Curse of the Azure Bonds? Eye of the Beholder? can't recall) which came with a wheel, like a decoder ring. To launch the game, it gave you 3 glyphs in Elvish, & you had to rotate the outer, middle, & inner ring to match them & type in the code that showed in the middle. I get irritated just recalling it.

Or games that required you to turn to page 143 of the manual & type in the word in sentence 3 of paragraph 7. Holy Gygax those were annoying. Plus if you lost your wheel or manual you were SOL (I literally had to call up my friend, on a landline mind you, who also owned the game just to launch it at one point).

So, "you gotta have this other program installed" just doesn't seem like a burden to me. I get that it literally *is* a burden, but I just don't really care. Again, not really trying to convert anybody, just relating how I joined the collective.

EDIT: Found it online! Check out this DRM: https://www.oldgames.sk/codewheel/pool-of-radiance My memory was off, it was only two rings but 3 phrases & it told you which number to enter

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

So, "you gotta have this other program installed" just doesn't seem like a burden to me.

Until it's a giant security hole and your operating system disables it entirely and you cannot access your game at all. Yay, SuckyROM!

 

[RobAnybody]

Totally fair - I haven't experienced any downside, so that also affects my opinion. It's only been positive, ever since I begrudgingly caved in. I... (let's keep this between us, OK)... I... even like collecting all the cards for my games - that's how much I've succumbed.

 

[Senethro]

GoG entered a marketplace that Valve had reduced to a zero competition wasteland.

Epic games is a startup.

The fact that Valve's grip has slipped slightly does not justify a pretense that said grip never existed, or was ever justifiable.

I assume you're referring to GoG in 2012 beginning selling independent contemporary and so-called AAA titles? I remember that kind of time. Someone made some joke about Steam having maybe 70% of the digital market and Impulse, GoG, D2D and GamersGate all fighting ever more furiously over the last spot on the podium.

Prior to that, were GoG and Steam actually in competition?

It is unlikely that Valve will ever say "wow, let's try to directly offend Steam users." That doesn't make them "pro-consumer." Gamers with less than ideal internet access are consumers, and there is no question that Valve is anti-them, always has been, and always will be. Consumers who use digital distribution platforms other than Steam are still consumers, and Valve has never disguised the fact that they are anti-them.

You do you, and I'm not trying to make you do otherwise, but I hope you recognize that your position is basically "well the bully doesn't pick on me so what they do is okay from where I stand."

IMO this sort of thing is a good argument for Internet access as an essential utility. If private companies aren't obliged to provide you with service and that service is essential for survival or participation in society, then it needs to be publicly owned and provided.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I think it comes down to how much you care about DRM. And maybe more importantly what types of it you've experienced. I remember one of those Gold Box D&D video games from ages ago (Pool of Radiance? Curse of the Azure Bonds? Eye of the Beholder? can't recall) which came with a wheel, like a decoder ring. To launch the game, it gave you 3 glyphs in Elvish, & you had to rotate the outer, middle, & inner ring to match them & type in the code that showed in the middle. I get irritated just recalling it.

Or games that required you to turn to page 143 of the manual & type in the word in sentence 3 of paragraph 7. Holy Gygax those were annoying. Plus if you lost your wheel or manual you were SOL (I literally had to call up my friend, on a landline mind you, who also owned the game just to launch it at one point).

So, "you gotta have this other program installed" just doesn't seem like a burden to me. I get that it literally *is* a burden, but I just don't really care. Again, not really trying to convert anybody, just relating how I joined the collective.

Yeah, I was there for those days. I loved cool manuals myself, and if that form of DRM had gotten locked in with publishers I might be on a different side. Of course someone would be saying "it's okay for you but I lost my manual!" and I'd be like "sucks to be you but that's not DRM's fault!"

I think the issue of "It is a burden I guess but I really don't care" is definitely a function of the burden not being particularly onerous to you personally. I almost laughed out loud when Warpus used "I can play my games in Nepal" in his argument, because I have no doubt the hotels he stayed in had fine internet service, and that when he was out hiking he had things to do other than play games. I seriously doubt that Steam is viewed by the average Nepalese gamer as some sort of godsend.

 

[RobAnybody]

Oh, that's fair, too. I have decent internet access (Time Warner/Spectrum, so I'm never going to go above "decent" in my appraisal). If it goes down for even 30 minutes I'm pissed!! (I mean, not really, more annoyed) That totally colors my judgment.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Oh, that's fair, too. I have decent internet access (Time Warner/Spectrum, so I'm never going to go above "decent" in my appraisal). If it goes down for even 30 minutes I'm pissed!! (I mean, not really, more annoyed) That totally colors my judgment.

If Valve had their way and all publishers opted into their next gen "Steam store must be connected to play" DRM that thirty minutes might seem a little longer.

That's actually a great example against the "well they been good for me" position. It's the classic "who will speak when they come for you?"

When Valve made DRM that required physical purchasers to still connect to install, I had internet so I could still install games so I did not care.

When Valve made DRM that required me to purchase through their store, I installed their store when I wanted to buy a game and then uninstalled it so I did not care.

When Valve made DRM that required me to keep their store installed, it just didn't take up that much space so I did not care.

When Valve made DRM that required me to have their store not only installed but running, it just didn't take up that much bandwidth so I did not care.

Where does this chain stop for you? Do you think Gabe Newell will be satisfied before it finally reaches the point where you aren't? Why would you think that, based on his history?

 

[cardgame]

This is honestly hilarious