Gaza ~ What would YOU do?

[choxorn]

I'm assuming morality (otherwise I wouldn't care), and I don't think it's reasonable to moral and athiest. Since Christianity is the most likely non-athiest faith to be true, I'm assuming that.

As a consistent Christian, I would believe the Bible the Word of God- so, yes, I would say it was o.k. (And no, I'm not an athiest- I'm unsure)

You really are a fundie. That your bloody holy book tells you to do something doesn't make it right.

 

[Roller123]

About real solutions to the ongoing war there, there are only two:

A single state with everyone a full citizen;
Two fully sovereign states.

Eh what? Giving full citizenship? On what reasons? And how it that supposed to change anything? Arabs want Israeli dead, not their citizenship.
Two separate states they are already.

 

[negZero]

I nuke Nigeria to show them I mean business

 

[Formaldehyde]

Firstly, it isn't a civil war- they are two seperate states.)

Um, no they aren't. Gaza is the only current Palestinian 'territory' which has no Israeli presence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:West_Bank_&_Gaza_Map_2007_(Settlements).gif

Furthermore, it is not recognized by the UN as being a sovereign nation.

Second, the Palestinians would have a majority in such a state- and therefore they could vote to kick the Israelis out.

As the Israelis have "voted" to kick the Palestinians out of their own country?

A fully soverign Palestine wouldn't get rid of Hamas. What would you do about that?

Wish them luck as the duly elected officials of their people?

 

[Ramius75]

Hope both sides realize how easily this can be resolved.

Arabs - Stop attacking Israel and recognize it as a state.

Israel - Return all land an go back to the 1948 borders.

Things are much easier when emotion doesnt screw things up.

ya.... one of the better idea.

 

[jessiecat]

Eh what? Giving full citizenship? On what reasons? And how it that supposed to change anything? Arabs want Israeli dead, not their citizenship.
Two separate states they are already.

Your naivete never fails to surprise me.

The Arabs want the Israelis out of their land, not dead.

The Palestinians don't have a state. They are allowed to exist on less than half the West Bank separated from each other by roadblocks and unable to travel freely. The Israelis squat illegally on the rest hogging all the best land, water and resources. Gaza is a prison camp sealed off from rest of the world by an Israeli blockade.

One day, if the world gets its act together and forces Israel to return all the occupied land and dismantle her settlements on the West Bank, there might just be two viable independent states living in peace with each other.

In the meantime, try to read a book or something and gain a little knowledge before you make any more foolish assumptions.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Some time ago I read an article by Jeffrey Goldberg, his solution ... however small the chance of success:

There is a fixed idea among some Israeli leaders that Hamas can be bombed into moderation. This is a false and dangerous notion. It is true that Hamas can be deterred militarily for a time, but tanks cannot defeat deeply felt belief.

The reverse is also true: Hamas cannot be cajoled into moderation. Neither position credits Hamas with sincerity, or seriousness.

The only small chance for peace today is the same chance that existed before the Gaza invasion: The moderate Arab states, Europe, the United States and, mainly, Israel, must help Hamas’s enemy, Fatah, prepare the West Bank for real freedom, and then hope that the people of Gaza, vast numbers of whom are unsympathetic to Hamas, see the West Bank as an alternative to the squalid vision of Hassan Nasrallah and Nizar Rayyan.

Any military "solution" will fail as it so often has done in the past. And not for lack of trying. Creating an alternative seems to be more sensible than making sure all possible routes to alternatives for the current situation being bombed to smithereens.

 

[Winner]

I find these words disturbing.

I find people who think that 1.5 million people crammed in an area smaller than my city's metropolitan area can afford to increase their population two-fold every 20 years stupid

Also, I think it's symptomatic that the Israel-bashers on this forum have been unable to offer a realistic solution to Gaza/Palestinian problem the whole time I've been here. Everybody seems to believe that the problem will just go away if Israel does nothing.

Let's solve the world's problems by inaction! It worked soooo well in the past

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I find people who think that 1.5 million people crammed in an area smaller than my city's metropolitan area can afford to increase their population two-fold every 20 years stupid

Stupid? Or a result of the situation they are in?

Just figure: how many themeparks, bowlingalleys, bars, Travelagencies are there in the Gaza.

Also, I think it's symptomatic that the Israel-bashers on this forum have been unable to offer a realistic solution to Gaza/Palestinian problem the whole time I've been here. Everybody seems to believe that the problem will just go away if Israel does nothing.

I haven't seen many realistic solutions in this thread from either side. Including the Palliebashers, including your own.

 

[RedRalph]

Hope both sides realize how easily this can be resolved.

Arabs - Stop attacking Israel and recognize it as a state.

Israel - Return all land an go back to the 1948 borders.

Things are much easier when emotion doesnt screw things up.

Yeah, thats there or thereabouts IMO

 

[jessiecat]

I find people who think that 1.5 million people crammed in an area smaller than my city's metropolitan area can afford to increase their population two-fold every 20 years stupid

Also, I think it's symptomatic that the Israel-bashers on this forum have been unable to offer a realistic solution to Gaza/Palestinian problem the whole time I've been here. Everybody seems to believe that the problem will just go away if Israel does nothing.

Let's solve the world's problems by inaction! It worked soooo well in the past

Have you bothered to read the last couple of posts by Ziggy and I. Lots of realistic ideas there. Care to respond to them? No. Of course Israel should not do nothing. Get out of the West Bank and Gaza. Bring all their settlers home. In exchange for recognition by the Arabs and peace. That'll do just fine.

 

[Leifmk]

This is all a consequence of the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire after the Great War. I am increasingly concerned that it may have been a mistake.

 

[Abaddon]

I can't see Israel withdrawing.. it is too powerful

 

[jessiecat]

I can't see Israel withdrawing.. it is too powerful

If they want peace, security and recognition, they'll have to. There is no choice anymore. It'll happen and they know it. Just a matter of time.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Have you bothered to read the last couple of posts by Ziggy and I. Lots of realistic ideas there. Care to respond to them? No. Of course Israel should not do nothing. Get out of the West Bank and Gaza. Bring all their settlers home. In exchange for recognition by the Arabs and peace. That'll do just fine.

I hope Winner wasn't referring to those because Winner doesn't consider us Israel-bashers

 

[jessiecat]

I hope Winner wasn't referring to those because Winner doesn't consider us Israel-bashers

You mean I can't pick a fight with him today?

(Maybe if I said "Eastern Europe" or something.)

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

You mean I can't pick a fight with him today?

(Maybe if I said "Eastern Europe" or something.)

That'd work.

Gaza might be a craphole, but compared to Poland and other countries in Eastern Europe it's Disneyland.

 

[Winner]

Have you bothered to read the last couple of posts by Ziggy and I. Lots of realistic ideas there. Care to respond to them? No. Of course Israel should not do nothing. Get out of the West Bank and Gaza. Bring all their settlers home. In exchange for recognition by the Arabs and peace. That'll do just fine.

^--- This is why I said "realistic" solutions

 

[jessiecat]

^--- This is why I said "realistic" solutions

Eastern Europe.

 

[Winner]

Stupid? Or a result of the situation they are in?

Just figure: how many themeparks, bowlingalleys, bars, Travelagencies are there in the Gaza.

Oh please, not again - poverty is no excuse for maintaining an untenable population growth. China wasn't exactly a show-case of prosperity and high living standards (if you don't count prison camps as themeparks ) when it adopted its one-child policy.

How much food can Gaza Strip produce? Probably not enough to feed more than few thousand people. They're totally dependent on foreign aid, but they're still not adjusting their birth-control policies to fit the situation they're in.

Few obvious explanations:

- unconditionally provided free aid -> no incentive to stop breeding like rabbits.
- demographics as a form of warfare -> Hamas and other radicals believe that they will eventually outbreed the Jews. More children -> more martyrs available for the holy cause.
- religious conservatism -> birth control is a sin!

And no, Gaza and the West Bank are not too poor and disorganized to adopt a sensible birth-control policy - they just don't want to. The more Palestinians, the greater chance of victory over the hated Zionists - that's how the Palestinian leaders see it (very probably, thus the insisting on the return of the 4 million [and counting] "refugees" to Israel proper).

Now tell me, why should we (the Europeans, Westerner - those who provide the aid) support such an short-sided, or better, outright idiotic behaviour? It certainly doesn't help the peace process if one side of the conflict has a steady supply of young radicalized men ready to blow themselves up. Demographic stabilization of the Palestinian territories is AT LEAST as important as providing security, political stabily and prosperity. I'd say it is a prerequisite to these things.