Gaza ~ What would YOU do?

[Sidhe]

Move to a different country as soon as I could and pretend like I never lived there.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

No, there aren't. Outside of the expedient of genetic testing (which has been used), one can simply note that the entire khaganate of the Khazars didn't actually convert to Judaism, but merely a large portion of the ruling class did, and thus would not provide sufficient genetic material to allow for the genesis of all Ashkenazi Jewry. And to support the claims of Ashkenazism being of a Khazar origin, we have a novel by Arthur Koestler, a series of books by American Southern Christian Identity authors, and the histrionics of the odd Arab politician, none of whom utilize a shred of evidence.

In short, I call shenanigans on the Khazar theory.

I have read (admittedly from an Internet site) that argued based on the graphic depictions of Jews from ancient times (though, now I think about it, they may have been talking about descent from Hitties) compared to how they look now, and cites a book written shortly (well, two decades tops) before World War I where a Jew finds a large amount of evidence for Khazar descent himself.

The vagueness, btw, is my memory- not the site itself.

I also remember at least one other site (though the typical member from here would probably call them racist, and since I didn't check enough to know they may be) which backs the claim. (Thus making your claims about a lack of evidence untrue)

Also, what do you think of my actual proposal?

 

[Rossiya]

I would turn the whole area in to a paintballing zone.

 

[Rashiminos]

Let them fight it out. To the victor go the spoils.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

5) Try to improve the economic situation.
6) Reward those who cooperate, severely punish those don't.


BTW, Gaza strip's annual pop. growth rate is 3.42%, which means the population doubles every 20 years. It would be sensible to do something about that too - perhaps to administer contraceptives in food and water

I find these words disturbing.

 

[choxorn]

Why the Golan Heights? And give them back to whom? Syria? Yeah, giving al-Assad a straight shot across the plains to Tel Aviv is going to fly real well with the Israeli electorate, government, and military.

Fine, screw Golan, until Syria and Lebanon can learn how to get along with them too.

1) Figure out whether or not it is true that God considers Israel (the current Israel- there are claims with good grounding that they actually Khazars) to have the right to the land.

How can you determine whether this is true or not? Send God a text message asking who he promised the land to?

Neverwon: Ha1 God! S0 w40 u pr0m1s3 1sra3l t0?

God: Lol, t43 j3w5

 

[Dachs]

I have read (admittedly from an Internet site) that argued based on the graphic depictions of Jews from ancient times (though, now I think about it, they may have been talking about descent from Hitties) compared to how they look now, and cites a book written shortly (well, two decades tops) before World War I where a Jew finds a large amount of evidence for Khazar descent himself.

The vagueness, btw, is my memory- not the site itself.

I also remember at least one other site (though the typical member from here would probably call them racist, and since I didn't check enough to know they may be) which backs the claim. (Thus making your claims about a lack of evidence untrue)

Yes, books and websites exist. But what matters is their content, not merely that they're around, and their content is utter bunk. The theory first popped up in the 1880s, and has had some longevity among the racialist set, but there really is no counter to the multiple examples of genetic testing that have been done to prove that Ashkenazi Jewry, along with most other examples of Jewish communities, all had their genesis in the Levant. Any connection to the Khazars was, like I said (cit. Nebel et al, 2005), very small due to the rather small gene pool of Khazarian Jews with which to work, and Khazar descent could be counted in at most 12% of the Ashkenazim. That is solid, that is falsifiable, and there really is no real counter to that. The scientific and historical community has essentially dismissed the Khazar theory as misleading and generally untrue.

Also, what do you think of my actual proposal?

i: have U.S cut funding to Israel.

Difficult to implement at best, due to high numbers of Jewish and pro-Zionist lobbyists in the United States. Evangelical Christians and the Jewish community would crucify whoever proposed this.

1 or 2 years later (though this should be top secret), prepare coalition of Syria, Palestine, Saudi Arabia (U.S pressure), the U.S (though offering evacuation and U.S citizenship for Israelis who want it), and anybody else willing to help. Most Jews driven onto ships and sent to U.S (or wherever they want to go that will accept them)- with the exception of those that legitimately bought land from Palestinians, who are allowed to stay and kepe their land as a condition of the treaty. Palestinians resettle land.

I don't think that genocide is an appropriate response to any situation.

ii: Have the U.S make the following with Hamas, using U.S troops as enforcement if they break it:
-The U.S government will literally buy all Jew land gained by force from it's original owners for it's value at the time of expulsion (possibly using some mechanism through the States to make this technically constitutional), thus legitimising Jew control there.

There is virtually no support within the United States to seal this deal, because that will cost a very large amount of money to do something that most Americans don't think is as important as the domestic situation. America doesn't exactly have a bottomless wallet.

-Much of Islamic law will be enforced throughout the region (not the conversion rules, but things like the hijab and stoning to death for certain offences) on both Israel and Palestine

How's that supposed to happen?

iii: Have U.S give Israel full support in going all-out- at first, expulsion of Arabs from Israel proper and the restoration of settlements on the West Bank. Second, outright expulsion from the West Bank and Machivellian colonisation policies for the whole Bank. Third, formal annexation of Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan, with an agreement forcing all non-Jews to evacuate within 200 years.

Not even the Israelis want control of the kind of Greater Israel that you propose.

I would turn the whole area in to a paintballing zone.

That way the Chinese people would get paint all over their homes...

 

[Fëanor]

Why can't we hear your solution?

One, secular state. Modeled in many ways after the Republic of Turkey/Atatürk's Reforms.

 

[Roller123]

The only workable solutions are to depopulate(gift them to Egypt) the region or kill half of population. Instant peace.

Effects:
-Peace in Gaza(afraid of provoking Israel)
-Peace with neighbors(afraid of provoking Israel)
-USA collapses(no money from Iraq)
-Arab states collapse(no money from oil)
-Russia collapses (no money from oil)
-China collapses (no money from selling junk because major markets collapse)
-Europe wins. But mentally collapses mourning "innocent civilians".

Its Israel vs the World. Now do you really think this is gonna stop any time soon?
Europe is the real sucker here. Plagues by high energy costs. all it has to do is.. nothing. That includes not sending humanitarian help, which is used to buy more weapons.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Move to a different country as soon as I could and pretend like I never lived there.

Unfortunately for them, the Palestinians don't have that option:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/article968477.ece

Imagine living in a place where you can never drive more than 25 miles in one direction. Where you can't get on a plane to visit relatives because the only airport has been closed for years. Where you can't go far from shore without risk of being seized or fired upon.

Now imagine possibly spending your entire life there, your freedom of movement completely controlled by another country.

This is the Gaza Strip.

No matter what you think of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the fact remains that this little swath of land has long been a virtual prison with Israelis and, to a much lesser extent, Egyptians as jail guards. And that means there is no place to run for thousands of innocent civilians as Israeli tanks and warplanes continue their assault on Hamas.

With Gaza's borders to Israel and Egypt closed, Gazans "are fish in a barrel," Fred Abrahams, a senior researcher for Human Rights Watch, told the New York Times. And this was the first conflict he could recall in which civilians couldn't flee a war zone.

Think about it. During the 1979-89 Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, millions of Afghans went to Pakistan. During the 1991 Persian Gulf War, thousands of Kurds took refuge in the mountains of southeastern Turkey. During the 1999 Kosovo war, nearly a million ethnic Albanians flooded into Macedonia. And during the most violent years of the Iraq war, a good part of the Iraqi population left for Syria and Jordan.

To be sure, many of those refugees endured terrible hardships. But at least they were safe from the worst horrors of war.

Not so the 1.5-million Gazans. Except for a few hundred people who have been evacuated for medical treatment or because they held foreign passports, no Gazans have been able to flee the violence since Israel attacked Dec. 27.

 

[RalofTyr]

Gaza needs Home Depo stores. They can buy all their spare rocket parts.


And of course, WalMarts.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

Fine, screw Golan, until Syria and Lebanon can learn how to get along with them too.



How can you determine whether this is true or not? Send God a text message asking who he promised the land to?

Neverwon: Ha1 God! S0 w40 u pr0m1s3 1sra3l t0?

God: Lol, t43 j3w5

Theological studies. Determine if there are any verses which suggest God took the land from Israel, or any reasons to suggest the original verses are inapplicable. Get the best theological minds on the subject, and get an impartial outsider to judge.

Yes, books and websites exist. But what matters is their content, not merely that they're around, and their content is utter bunk. The theory first popped up in the 1880s, and has had some longevity among the racialist set, but there really is no counter to the multiple examples of genetic testing that have been done to prove that Ashkenazi Jewry, along with most other examples of Jewish communities, all had their genesis in the Levant. Any connection to the Khazars was, like I said (cit. Nebel et al, 2005), very small due to the rather small gene pool of Khazarian Jews with which to work, and Khazar descent could be counted in at most 12% of the Ashkenazim. That is solid, that is falsifiable, and there really is no real counter to that. The scientific and historical community has essentially dismissed the Khazar theory as misleading and generally untrue.

Sorry, didn't know.

Difficult to implement at best, due to high numbers of Jewish and pro-Zionist lobbyists in the United States. Evangelical Christians and the Jewish community would crucify whoever proposed this.

There is virtually no support within the United States to seal this deal, because that will cost a very large amount of money to do something that most Americans don't think is as important as the domestic situation. America doesn't exactly have a bottomless wallet.

The implicit premise of this thread is that we can actually do something about Gaza- I'm just looking at from a U.S perspective. If Barrack Obama actually wanted to do this, it would be (arguably) worth trying.

How's that supposed to happen?

U.S threatens to cut funding to Israel if they don't. The threat of force from the neighbours keeps them in line.

Not even the Israelis want control of the kind of Greater Israel that you propose.

Intellectually, how can they refute the arguments that they should without undermining the basis for Israel's existence as a state?

 

[El_Machinae]

Are you suggesting that it would be okay to ethnically cleanse an area if some ancient book said it was okay?

 

[jessiecat]

Are you suggesting that it would be okay to ethnically cleanse an area if some ancient book said it was okay?

Funny. I've always wondered what became of the Caananites?

 

[Dachs]

Funny. I've always wondered what became of the Caananites?

That time it wasn't an ancient book, it was the voices in your head. That makes it all okay, dude, duh.

 

[jessiecat]

That time it wasn't an ancient book, it was the voices in your head. That makes it all okay, dude, duh.

Correction. Their heads, I think you mean.

 

[innonimatu]

I find these words disturbing.

And that's his PR-conscious discourse. Where else have we heard about the "need to control the numbers of an undesirable population"? I'm sure that his private solutions could even match those others presented at Posen...


About real solutions to the ongoing war there, there are only two:

A single state with everyone a full citizen;
Two fully sovereign states.

Anything else will just continue the war. I think that the first has a better chance of succeeding, the second may collapse into another war and occupation before relations go from the present hatred within part of both prospective populations to normal relations.
Just as South Africa was forced to finish the apartheid when the wealth and influence of its elites was finally harmed by its international pariah status, so too must the israely elites be forced to accept a political settlement to the israeli civil war.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

And that's his PR-conscious discourse. Where else have we heard about the "need to control the numbers of an undesirable population"? I'm sure that his private solutions could even match those others presented at Posen...


About real solutions to the ongoing war there, there are only two:

A single state with everyone a full citizen;
Two fully sovereign states.

Anything else will just continue the war. I think that the first has a better chance of succeeding, the second may collapse into another war and occupation before relations go from the present hatred within part of both prospective populations to normal relations.
Just as South Africa was forced to finish the apartheid when the wealth and influence of its elites was finally harmed by its international pariah status, so too must the israely elites be forced to accept a political settlement to the israeli civil war.

Firstly, it isn't a civil war- they are two seperate states. Second, the Palestinians would have a majority in such a state- and therefore they could vote to kick the Israelis out.

A fully soverign Palestine wouldn't get rid of Hamas. What would you do about that?

Are you suggesting that it would be okay to ethnically cleanse an area if some ancient book said it was okay?

I'm assuming morality (otherwise I wouldn't care), and I don't think it's reasonable to moral and athiest. Since Christianity is the most likely non-athiest faith to be true, I'm assuming that.

As a consistent Christian, I would believe the Bible the Word of God- so, yes, I would say it was o.k. (And no, I'm not an athiest- I'm unsure)

 

[innonimatu]

Firstly, it isn't a civil war- they are two seperate states. Second, the Palestinians would have a majority in such a state- and therefore they could vote to kick the Israelis out.

A fully soverign Palestine wouldn't get rid of Hamas. What would you do about that?

They'd be balanced, and no one would be managing to kick anyone else out. Hamas would quickly become inconvenient, an obstacle to prosperity, and be disposed of, by the palestinians themselves. The reason it gained support now is that the palestinians in Gaza had seen no progress and were getting desperate. And then the "international community" used the worst possible strategy to address that problem: it supported the "embargo" and made people even there more desperate. Wealth would destroy groups like that, but that's just too expensive for many players there.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

They'd be balanced, and no one would be managing to kick anyone else out. Hamas would quickly become inconvenient, an obstacle to prosperity, and be disposed of, by the palestinians themselves. The reason it gained support now is that the palestinians in Gaza had seen no progress and were getting desperate. And then the "international community" used the worst possible strategy to address that problem: it supported the "embargo" and made people even there more desperate. Wealth would destroy groups like that, but that's just too expensive for many players there.

Some sort of federal system for balance's sake? That could work.