GEM Stage 1: Terrain

[GenjiKhan]

It has been suggested before,but what about making Copper receives a bonus on Mint instead on Furnace?

 

[Thalassicus]

I don't know why I didn't think of that, it makes more sense. Thanks! I now moved copper to the mint.

 

[mystikx21]

The current resource bonuses on buildings are:

Building | Theme | +1 | Resources
Granary|grains||wheat, sugar, spice
Lighthouse|fishing||fish
Stable|livestock||horse, ivory, sheep, cows, deer
Seaport|seafood||fish, whale, crab, pearls
Furnace|steel||iron, coal
Market|exotic cuisine||porcelain, salt, citrus, truffles, bananas
Mint|currency||copper, silver, gold, gems
Circus|performers||horse, ivory
Amphitheater|costumes||cotton, furs, silk, dye, jewelry
Temple|rituals||wine, incense
(Wonders)|--|--|Marble

By the way, you can click the "forum tables" link in my sig to see how to use tables.

Edit: revised to include Ampitheater.

Got it thanks.... isn't Marble (and stone) improved by the stone works?

I was leaning toward copper being more associated with units and production than money, though bronze coins makes some amount of... cents.

Also, putting jewelry and porcelain in different categories has implications for City States.

 

[Thalassicus]

Oh right, I forgot to list the stoneworks. What citystate implications do you mean?

 

[mystikx21]

Oh right, I forgot to list the stoneworks. What citystate implications do you mean?

Distinguishes between mercentile CS's, one will get more money and another more culture, or no extra money. I'm assuming they build buildings since they have them when I knock them over. I have no idea what use they'd have for culture instead of money is mostly where I'm looking there.

 

[Thalassicus]

It's only a 1-yield difference either way, so it probably won't matter.

 

[Ahriman]

I think stoneworks boosting marble quarries is fine. The fact that marble gives you a wonder boost is mostly compensated for by the fact that it has lower density; if cotton is your local luxury there are probably several copies nearby, if marble is your local luxury there are probably only 1-2 copies.

 

[Thalassicus]

I agree, and in addition to what you mentioned, it's not considered for the list of resources "exclusive" to specific players.

 

[Thibaulthc]

horses and ivory improved twice: I think the Circus should not improve horses , not the stable Ivory
market and stables improve 5 resources, I'd move deers and bananas to Granary..ok, now granary has 5 resources improved...

 

[mystikx21]

It's only a 1-yield difference either way, so it probably won't matter.

Fair enough. Just making sure it was thought through. I don't see the benefit in granting CS's extra culture instead of money, but it's not much yield so it won't matter.

horses and ivory improved twice

Fish is also improved twice. Actually most sea resources are improved a couple more times, indirectly. I think this is usually because these tiles can tend to appear in plains (or in the sea), which tends to be less useful tiles than grassland or hills.

I would perhaps move crab and bananas to being an extra food tile myself, but I'm not prepared to draw a line in the sand over it either. My suspicion is that production is greatly valued and bananas are usually in a food rich area as is so nobody cares.

 

[Thalassicus]

I improve horses and ivory twice because I like having a variety of power levels between different resources.

 

[Thalassicus]

In the next update I added balance adjustments for the G&K natural wonders, based on my tentative guess at the value of the faith yield. I also updated some of the older natural wonders based on the assumption Firaxis might have finally gotten AIs to recognize the importance of happiness on tiles.

GEM v1.03

GEM v1.02

I weigh yield values as 1 = 1 = 2 = 3 c5production: or )
​

 

[wobuffet]

In the next update I added balance adjustments for the G&K natural wonders, based on my tentative guess at the value of the faith yield.

This is awesome. (Took me a while to figure out what you meant by those column weights up there though!)

I think 1 is intended to be roughly as valuable 1, by the way; this comes from comparing these two buildings:

Mosque: +3, +2, +1
Pagoda: +2, +2, +2​

What's happening to the Fountain of Youth and El Dorado (and any others whose special effects I've forgotten)?

I improve horses and ivory twice because I like having a variety of power levels between different resources.

Just to provide a point of contrast, I think each resource should be improved by at least one building (or, if not that, at least one building or Religious Belief). They shouldn't all be the same, but I think things are more interesting if values are situational. If Silver is simply a strictly better luxury to have around than, say, Silk, that makes things less interesting; each should be better in certain situations (more vs more or something, say).

That said, as long as they're small enough differences, it shouldn't matter too much anyway. Marble, for example, is quite useful for the Wonder production bonus, but I don't have that big a problem with it since it was reduced to 15%... although I'd prefer 10%. It never seems to appear in clusters, unlike other Resources; perhaps that's intentional.

 

[Thibaulthc]

Is there some luxuries which are always more rare? Like Truffles and Whales?

for Natural Wonders: what about the 10 when in your territory.
+ the "heals at double rate" from fountain of youth
@wobuffet: What's the special effect of the Eldorado? is there any other special effects from natural wonders? I think one gives a bonus, but can't remember which
@thall: you might have forgotten Krakatoa in your list

 

[wobuffet]

I've seen clusters of Truffles and even Whales before.

VEM eliminated the "Heals at Double Rate" promotion from the Fountain of Youth; it's grossly imbalanced. I think the FoY also did +10... I understand it's supposed to be rare, but that's a huge game balance-breaker. I support Thal's idea to bring it in line balance-wise (and presumably make it not so rare).

El Dorado gives 500 instant gold to its first finder, IIRC. I don't recall if VEM eliminated that or not, but I'd support reducing or getting rid of that. (VEM also reduced Spain's gold bonuses from finding NWs, or at least the gap between "first to find" and "not first to find" bonuses.)

 

[Ahriman]

I think 1 is intended to be roughly as valuable 1, by the way; this comes from comparing these two buildings:

I don't think that is the right way to go about balancing. The Pagoda is clearly way better than the Mosque or Cathedral. Just because Firaxis thought they were roughly equal in value doesn't mean they actually are.

 

[mystikx21]

Is there some luxuries which are always more rare? Like Truffles and Whales?

for Natural Wonders: what about the 10 when in your territory.
+ the "heals at double rate" from fountain of youth
@wobuffet: What's the special effect of the Eldorado? is there any other special effects from natural wonders? I think one gives a bonus, but can't remember which
@thall: you might have forgotten Krakatoa in your list

If you refer to the chart above, Foy gets 4 and 1 instead of 10 (and no free heal promotion to the unit that discovers it). It was the food and some gold before and no happiness.

Krakatoa is listed as "Volcano".

El Dorado gives 500 instant gold to its first finder, IIRC. I don't recall if VEM eliminated that or not, but I'd support reducing or getting rid of that.

VEM reduced this to 100 , and that change looks like it stayed in.

 

[Thibaulthc]

Oh, I really liked the "heals at double rate" promotion, gives some more variety, and make the FoY region some land you will want to fight for!

What I propose is to get rid of the 10 , gives it no yields, and keep the special ability.

 

[wobuffet]

Default heal promotion off, with the option to toggle it on?

 

[Thalassicus]

(Took me a while to figure out what you meant by those column weights up there though!)

Yeah, I just screenshotted that page of my spreadsheet. It's organized but does not have extensive labels.

El Dorado gives 500 instant gold to its first finder, IIRC. I don't recall if VEM eliminated that or not, but I'd support reducing or getting rid of that

It's 100 in vem, and I think that change is also part of gem now.

Krakatoa is listed as "Volcano".

It probably doesn't bother anyone, but I use "internal" names in my spreadsheets. I wrote excel code to automatically convert from visual tables to (much harder to read!) xml data, which saves a lot of time.

I disabled Fountain of Youth's free heal promotion for a couple of reasons. The AI never sent units there. I also limited healing bonuses to vanguard units. Medics are one of the most fun and useful roles for vanguards, and extra healing for everyone would reduce that specialness.