General discussion for civics

[tmv]

By time you can send millions or billions tons of trash per year into outer space you would be able to recycle it with 99.999% efficiency.

Including nuclear waste?

 

[raxo2222]

Including nuclear waste?

Mass of nuclear waste is insignificant comparing to all waste, that we are producing.

 

[Noriad2]

China claims they have solved the technical problems with Thorium energy, and has invested the equivalent of 3.3 billion USD in building 2 Thorium reactors in the Gobi Desert. They should become operational in the year 2020:

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...d-war-nuclear-energy-tech-will-power-warships

Thorium energy is nuclear energy based on Thorium instead of Uranium (although Thorium gets converted to Uranium-233 during the reaction). It uses a radically different reactor design based on liquid salt, which means there can be no "meltdown" and the amount of radioactive waste produced is reduced considerably.

For a technical introduction to Thorium energy, I recommend this documentary:

Thorium Remix 2011 (DVD Version)

 

[raxo2222]

Martial Law - Fascism - Modern X72
Grid - Mass Surveillance - Nanotech X101
Polystate - Mesh Networks - Nanotech X101
Machine Rule - Binary Legislation - Transhuman X108
Mind Control - Mind Uploading - Transhuman X114
Engineered Society - Precision Social Engineering - Galactic X123

While Grid and Polystate are in same Xgrid, they are vastly different civics in Rule category - there are few such civics in same category occupying same Xgrid.

If Mind Uploading is too far then what about Exocortex Networks (this tech unlocks Rapid Education, X104).
Other techs could be Cybernetics at X109 or Neuron Engineering at X111.

Also it seems like there is no hope for Off Planet Dumping Garbage civic.
Too early in tech tree (currently it is in too early side) and launch costs are million if not billion times too high to send garbage into space as main way of utilization of trash.
Too late in tech tree and you can as well use nanobots to digest trash, so you can get back useful resources at >90% efficiency in worst case.

Off planet dumping may be recycled to "High tech utilization" and be something between current Recycling and Atomization civic, that is 100% efficient recycling.
Nanoelectronics (X104), Nanobotics (X105) and Smart Dust (X113) are earliest techs, that deal with microscopic bots.
Nanobotics has Utility Fog building with some nice stats.

Conclusion is that advancements in nanotechnology makes Off Planet Dumping civic waste of money, energy and matter.
I guess Off planet dumping civic rusted very badly since its inclusion in RoM.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Conclusion is that advancements in nanotechnology makes Off Planet Dumping civic waste of money, energy and matter.
I guess Off planet dumping civic rusted very badly since its inclusion in RoM.

The Garbage Civic group is a C2C thing. It did not exist in RoM.

 

[raxo2222]

The Garbage Civic group is a C2C thing. It did not exist in RoM.

Oh well, then since it was created in C2C.

 

[tmv]

The "best" thing to do with garbage would be to throw it into a black hole and - somehow - gain back the energy. That would have to be in Galactic Era.

 

[raxo2222]

The "best" thing to do with garbage would be to throw it into a black hole and - somehow - gain back the energy. That would have to be in Galactic Era.

There is Garbage civic in Galactic era - Atomization.
It is essentially disassembling trash into separate atoms.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Oh well, then since it was created in C2C.

It was @Hydromancer who did that. I get that we could see logical cause to never see a future where this civic is in use, but perhaps try to find a path of least resistance that WOULD lead to such a civic. In the meantime, by all means, make civics that are its competition. If it's truly a substandard option, show the strengths and weaknesses as accurately as possible in the civic design itself. Better that than to remove it.

 

[raxo2222]

It was @Hydromancer who did that. I get that we could see logical cause to never see a future where this civic is in use, but perhaps try to find a path of least resistance that WOULD lead to such a civic. In the meantime, by all means, make civics that are its competition. If it's truly a substandard option, show the strengths and weaknesses as accurately as possible in the civic design itself. Better that than to remove it.

Well its weakness is being at first very expensive and later in tech tree very wasteful way of garbage disposal.
At least it is permanent solution for radioactive/toxic/hazardous waste.
If nanotechnology is very slow and launch prices drop very fast then maybe.

Maybe renaming it to High Tech Waste Utilization and making it civic, that is in midway between current Recycling and Galactic era Atomization, that is 100% efficient recycling.
Of course you could dump all radioactive waste into space.

Or that could be sending currently unrecyclable trash to some sort of space landfill.
This way tech could be placed sometime after you can build cislunar bases or carve asteroids.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Why we wouldn't send it all into a star is beyond me if we're not going to fully recycle it somehow. But maybe it's not just for the purposes of disposal. Maybe a people would off planet dump as a way to study certain chemical and biochemical interactions and processes that take place thereafter. Maybe they do it to leave their mark of ownership (like dogs peeing on bushes). Maybe it's to irritate or even intimidate a galactic rival, perhaps to make a mess that others feel the need to clean up thereby inconveniencing those others, a way to show intentional disrespect? Maybe it's a way to reflect on the society's achievements in an odd manner, like... look at all we consider beneath us now and the massive pile of that which we have processed and used up - like a mark of pride is somehow earned by how much garbage can be accumulated on a particular planet.

There are options. You're just looking at efficiency as the value system of a people. Represent that. But consider other values that may be expressed by the ways we can dispose of waste.

 

[raxo2222]

Why we wouldn't send it all into a star is beyond me if we're not going to fully recycle it somehow. But maybe it's not just for the purposes of disposal. Maybe a people would off planet dump as a way to study certain chemical and biochemical interactions and processes that take place thereafter. Maybe they do it to leave their mark of ownership (like dogs peeing on bushes). Maybe it's to irritate or even intimidate a galactic rival, perhaps to make a mess that others feel the need to clean up thereby inconveniencing those others, a way to show intentional disrespect? Maybe it's a way to reflect on the society's achievements in an odd manner, like... look at all we consider beneath us now and the massive pile of that which we have processed and used up - like a mark of pride is somehow earned by how much garbage can be accumulated on a particular planet.

There are options. You're just looking at efficiency as the value system of a people. Represent that. But consider other values that may be expressed by the ways we can dispose of waste.

Well we produce around two billion tons of waste per year.
Current launch cost is around $20 million per ton.
Now it is too expensive.

We could shoot nuclear waste at Sun in Nanotech era though.
But not much more.

If we want to get rid 10 000 000 tons of trash per year and launch cost would be $1000 per ton (somewhere in Nanotech era), then we would need to spend $10 billion on trash disposal in addition to recycling/storing remaining trash.

Space garbage trucks could be fusion/fission/externally powered space planes, that can use atmosphere as main propellant.

 

[Thunderbrd]

With antigravity and nearly no cost to exit gravity, all it would take is a little propulsion towards the sun or another planet and let natural gravity do the rest. Not much cost at that point.

 

[raxo2222]

With antigravity and nearly no cost to exit gravity, all it would take is a little propulsion towards the sun or another planet and let natural gravity do the rest. Not much cost at that point.

So this civic could be moved to where antigravity is unlocked.
While there is Levitation at late Nanotecch (and orbital flight too, that is spaceplanes capable to go to LEO in single stage), advancements in Nanotechnology managed to make recycling much more efficient in meantime.

I guess Off Planet Dumping would be final solution to unrecycable trash at Levitation - you can make things weightless with that tech, and then use addvanced version of coilgun when out of atmosphere to dump trash.

It appears Levitation in xml IS called Antigrav.
So there goes off planet dumping.

Now Recycling has two eras for itself.
It is unlocked in late Modern era, exists for whole Information era and then on late Nanotech era off planet dumping appears.
By that time you have space colonies around Earth, on Moon, Mars and Venus.

You can dump trash on Venus, but you might hit your floating colonies here

 

[Thunderbrd]

addvanced version of coilgun

There's a term for that on the tech tree... can't fully recall off the top of my head what that is but there's a mass projector beyond coilgun.

It appears Levitation in xml IS called Antigrav.

There's a difference there too. Might have been a distinction I made later though so some of the original XML type tags might refer incorrectly.

 

[raxo2222]

There's a term for that on the tech tree... can't fully recall off the top of my head what that is but there's a mass projector beyond coilgun.


There's a difference there too. Might have been a distinction I made later though so some of the original XML type tags might refer incorrectly.

Mass driver?
Still there is problem of atmosphere.

This tech is earlier in tech tree than levitation - it is on second column.
Levitation description says it can be used as anti-gravity too.

Although some techs like Levitation, Frost Beam, Electromagnetic Voltage and few others in Nanotech/Transhuman era sounds way too... speculative for that time frame.
Also some of manufactured resources found in these eras are using very speculative physics for lore.
On other hand time travel and faster than light travel/communications are possible and there is no upper bound of technological advancement.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Mass driver?

Yeah that's it.

Still there is problem of atmosphere.

Not if Anti-grav OR Levitation are in use. Is there anything that states we're trying to land the garbage gently? Any reason to?

Levitation description says it can be used as anti-gravity too.

I'm not sure which is supposed to be the term for the first form but the first form of this is more of a density manipulation to the point of being able to reach negative density - anti-gravity, but not field based gravity repulsion, which is the second stage. Without looking at the tech tree I can't say which is named which but once you reach the first form of this, between that and a space elevator most likely in use, it would be nearly effortless to transport garbage to space where it can thereafter be hurled with a Mass Driver towards any planet or star.


And of course even in the near future RL you're going to see some surprises in what we'll find we can accomplish with 'speculative' physics and some surprises in what we find we can't. It was absolute fantasy when I was a kid to think we could have materials that work as an actual invisibility cloak. Today, we have just that in use.

 

[raxo2222]

Not if Anti-grav OR Levitation are in use. Is there anything that states we're trying to land the garbage gently? Any reason to?

I meant launching garbage straight from Earth surface with coilgun/mass driver without first getting it out of atmosphere.
Essentially it would be jumping rocket, that flies high enough so it can have time to shoot garbage using mass driver, although space elevator can be used too.

Also density is mass/volume so negative density would mean negative mass or volume.

I guess C2C universe operates in bit different manner than our universe
Also transcendent aliens may have too much fun too - colonizing 1000 universes per second gets boring after some time.
I'm not joking - there are X universe portals at very end game.

 

[pepper2000]

There is also the Frictionless Flight tech. There you invent supersolid materials that allow travel through the atmosphere without friction. That's why Gravity Trains are introduced there.

 

[raxo2222]

There is also the Frictionless Flight tech. There you invent supersolid materials that allow travel through the atmosphere without friction. That's why Gravity Trains are introduced there.

This one could reduce maintenance cost from off planet dumping, as you no longer you have to get out of atmosphere to shoot trash into space.