[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[Seon]

"However, there is a type of war that every Christian is involved in. It is a spiritual war. It is a war of ideas. Every true Christian is a fighting passifist. In a very profound passage, which has been often misunderstood, Jesus utters this. He says “Think not that I am come to bring peace. I come not to bring peace, but a sword.” {Mt 10:34-36} Certainly he is not saying that he comes not to bring peace in the higher sense. What he is saying is: “I come not to bring this peace of escapism, this peace that fails to confront the real issues of life, the peace that makes for stagnant complacency.” Then he says, I come to bring a sword—not a physical sword. Whenever I come a conflict is precipitated between the old and the new, between justice and injustice, between the forces of light and the forces of darkness. “I come to declare war on evil. I come to declare war on injustice"
-MLK, "When Peace becomes Obnoxious"

Here, MLK makes an argument that non-violent protest does not necessarily mean promotion of 'peace,' as in lack of tension. A peace that tolerates a stagnant complacency with the status quo is less tolerable than a state of tension in which conflict, disparity, and disagreement between fellows becomes clear. A path to justice is not through understanding and compromise, but an active fight for a good future against evils of the past.

A good peace is not simply a lack of some negative force, but the presence of a positive one. Justice. Goodwill. Equality.

"There's no doubt about that. I will agree that there is a group in the Negro community advocating violence now. I happen to feel that this group represents a numerical minority. Surveys have revealed this. The vast majority of Negroes still feel that the best way to deal with the dilemma that we face in this country is through non-violent resistance, and I don't think this vocal group will be able to make a real dent in the Negro community in terms of swaying 22 million Negroes to this particular point of view.
-Interview with MLK dated 1966

Here, MLK asserts that physically violent aspect of his movement represent a minority, and that this existence of a violent subset should have no bearing in either how his messages are perceived nor the moral value of his mission--which is to fight injustice. The moral character of the movement should be based upon the moral character of its majority--which is empirically largely peaceful and good.

"But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity"
-MLK "The Other America"

Here, MLK makes an argument that while he condemns the riots and believes it to be self-destructive, that it is ultimately the status quo which is at blame for causing the riots to break out. Condemning a riot and failing to condemn the status quo or the oppressive conditions which caused it thus constitute a morally irresponsible act.

In addition, he condemns those who believe that status quo and 'tranquility,' that is, lack of protests and its accompanying riots, is preferable to justice and humanity, which he both noted previously must be fought for.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

thought better of MLK before I read that quote, now he just sounds like an apologist for senseless violence.

I'm sure him and the entire civil rights movement are totally shattered with regret over your disapproval, rolling around in their graves, suffering sysiphean torment of the mind for their horrible deeds

 

[AmazonQueen]

Here, MLK makes an argument that non-violent protest does not necessarily mean promotion of 'peace,' as in lack of tension. A peace that tolerates a stagnant complacency with the status quo is less tolerable than a state of tension in which conflict, disparity, and disagreement between fellows becomes clear. A path to justice is not through understanding and compromise, but an active fight for a good future against evils of the past.

A good peace is not simply a lack of some negative force, but the presence of a positive one. Justice. Goodwill. Equality.



Here, MLK asserts that physically violent aspect of his movement represent a minority, and that this existence of a violent subset should have no bearing in either how his messages are perceived nor the moral value of his mission--which is to fight injustice. The moral character of the movement should be based upon the moral character of its majority--which is empirically largely peaceful and good.



Here, MLK makes an argument that while he condemns the riots and believes it to be self-destructive, that it is ultimately the status quo which is at blame for causing the riots to break out. Condemning a riot and failing to condemn the status quo or the oppressive conditions which caused it thus constitute a morally irresponsible act.

In addition, he condemns those who believe that status quo and 'tranquility,' that is, lack of protests and its accompanying riots, is preferable to justice and humanity, which he both noted previously must be fought for.

Yes, the riots aren't something that MLK aimed at or the BLM Movement is aiming at, they are the result of the lack of response to years of complaint and peaceful protest.
Indian independence wasn't achieved by Gandhi and non-violent protest alone (arguably even mainly), there were horrible riots, massacres etc.
Sadly power tends to respond to threats more than it does to peaceful protest but that isn't the fault of the peaceful protesters.

 

[PhroX]

You're gonna preach about injustice on behalf of those perpetrating senseless violence against the innocent? Riots are the voice of the unheard? I thought better of MLK before I read that quote, now he just sounds like an apologist for senseless violence.

Violence maybe, but not senseless violence. These are people for whom every other avenue has failed. When you're in that position, violence makes a hell of a lot of sense.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Look at all that minor property damage! We must go back to murdering innocent civilians and oppressing whole groups of minorities for convenience's sake! Someone think of the statues!

./s

Wow. That whole "let's keep this RD" thing lasted a long time didn't it. Three posts?

 

[Estebonrober]

Wow. That whole "let's keep this RD" thing lasted a long time didn't it. Three posts?

In my defense I did not posit that this should be RD. It is full of completely racist takes that deserve derisive treatment in my opinion. I knew it would be fwiw.

Also comparing minor property damage to human lives is such an awful take it should not be considered part of a RD imo either.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

In my defense I did not posit that this should be RD.

It isn't your decision to make so that's not a defence.

Also comparing minor property damage to human lives is such an awful take it should not be considered part of a RD imo either.

You can make that point reasonably though, as you just did.

But RD is about the tone of discourse, not what can and cannot be said. You personally not liking something that is said doesn't mean it doesn't belong.

 

[cardgame]

So you can be as terrible a human being as you like, as long as you're polite about it, and nobody can call you out on it. This is why civility politics sucks.

Like when that one politician (Australian, perhaps?) got removed from the floor of the legislature for calling another politician, rightfully, a racist.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

So you can be as terrible a human being as you like, as long as you're polite about it, and nobody can call you out on it.

Well you can say anything that you like so long as it's within the forum rules and you're polite about it yes. Others can call them out just fine, provided they adhere to the same standards. You know this. If you're unable to criticise bad ideas without resorting to meme-level posting and wailing then I guess you need to practice your rhetoric, perhaps in a non-RD thread.

 

[Socrates99]

I'm surprised people are shocked about the violence. This protest has been going on for years. How long ago did Kaepernick lose his career over it? How many years has it been since Trayvon, Michael and Tamir were killed? How much has been done since then? It's almost like a movement needs to get scary before anything happens.

 

[cardgame]

Why are you people getting so uppity, it's only extrajudicial murder that doesn't affect me

 

[Hrothbern]

I'm surprised people are shocked about the violence. This protest has been going on for years. How long ago did Kaepernick lose his career over it? How many years has it been since Trayvon, Michael and Tamir were killed? How much has been done since then? It's almost like a movement needs to get scary before anything happens.

Perhaps

Attention span and exhaustion is always a hurdle.

But I do think Kaepernick had positive result !

It is about where your yardstick is... what you measure as result.
Hearts of people or results in law enshrined.
And what are laws without hearts ?

Would without Kaepernick winning the hearts of many people... would without Kaepernick this revolt against racism have spread out so fast ?

 

[Sommerswerd]

why is that?

Let's just say I'd like to see the links to the statistics on BLM protesters burning people's houses down this spring/summer. If you're introducing it as a non-negligible factor, I'd expect you'd be able to cite countless examples... that is, unless you're strawmanning as usual.

I thought better of MLK before I read that quote, now he just sounds like an apologist for senseless violence.

So you're against MLK now?... Fascinating. First protecting the Klan, now denouncing MLK. I guess I could acknowledge your ideological consistency?

 

[El_Machinae]

Violence is a symptom in many cases. What makes the violence necessary is that intervention wouldn't have happened without the symptom.

Let's go through the Trump Presidency (10% compounding returns in the stock market)*

Candidate Trump, racist infographic.
President Trump, pardon sheriff essentially convicted of racial profiling
President Trump, encourage roughing up suspects
President Trump, encourage firing of visible protesters
President Trump, convinced military he gave them overdue raises
President Trump, uses officials to clear a square for a photo-OP

*deficits of 5% of GDP to generate 4% nominal growth during peak of business cycle

[Trump deniers] -> points at beneficial stuff done, offended that uppity blacks aren't grateful

 

[gay_Aleks]

You ask: "why have the people forgotten about Trayvon, Michael and Tamir?", but I wonder - have they? Is this movement not directly linked to the injustice in your country? They have seen that the non-violent ways do not stop the killings, yet now, we can see how the state is set straight on them, to contain and defeat the movement.

 

[Kyriakos]

You ask: "why have the people forgotten about Trayvon, Michael and Tamir?", but I wonder - have they? Is this movement not directly linked to the injustice in your country? They have seen that the non-violent ways do not stop the killings, yet now, we can see how the state is set straight on them, to contain and defeat the movement.

Trayvon wasn't killed by police. If this keeps getting presented as a general black vs white issue, instead of a specific police primitive brutality vs the public, it will only allow the murderous US police to continue doing their thing.

Which, tbh, is sadly what I do expect will happen. But it needn't have gone that way.

 

[Seon]

To be fair, protecting the Klan while denouncing the civil rights movement and MLK is not a new opinion in America. It is, in fact, quite a popular one in groups such as white supremacists and sociopaths, among others, some of whom even may also be libertarians.

Trayvon wasn't killed by police. If this keeps getting presented as a general black vs white issue, instead of a specific police primitive brutality vs the public, it will only allow the murderous US police to continue doing their thing.

it is, of course, also a race issue. Acknowledging that racism plays a part in police brutality does not weaken the position of being against police brutality. In fact, it strengthens it in most cases.

 

[Kyriakos]

it is, of course, also a race issue. Acknowledging that racism plays a part in police brutality does not weaken the position of being against police brutality. In fact, it strengthens it in most cases.

Certainly it is.

But if it gets presented like a 99,99999% black minority issue, it won't get resolved.

 

[civvver]

I wish people would stop lumping Trayvon Martin in with police shootings. Zimmerman got off because of a stupid stand your ground law, a terrible law, but there was insufficient evidence to prove he did anything illegal. Cops are literally murdering people and getting off because they're being protected by the establishment. They are breaking the law and it's being covered up. It's a pretty big difference in my opinion.

 

[Kyriakos]

I wish people would stop lumping Trayvon Martin in with police shootings. Zimmerman got off because of a stupid stand your ground law, a terrible law, but there was insufficient evidence to prove he did anything illegal. Cops are literally murdering people and getting off because they're being protected by the establishment. They are breaking the law and it's being covered up. It's a pretty big difference in my opinion.

And you can be sure cops (their handlers) will try to arm themselves with concrete statues. And with that diversion, maintain their activities.