[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

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Like I said, you are free to believe whatever you wish about MLK, but if you are looking for an activist leader who denied violence no matter absolutely not, you will not find it. Even Gandhi recommended violence, if there was no other option between it and acceptance of status quo, and he was as pacifist as they came.

This is because change is inherently a violent process—of the old being overcome by the new. Not all who seek change will seek it in rational and peaceful manner, but to abandon change because of it is a worse sin than not to advocate for change at all.
 
And to jump this convo to the 21st century, where racism is poof, solved, at least half of the prominent Ferguson activists and leaders have died under suspicious af circumstances. Two gunshots to the back of the head style.

Yea this has not gone unnoticed in the area. . .
 
Well also the supermassive riots that followed King’s assassination did lead to rapid passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1968 so its not like its totally ineffective way to affect change.
 
You mean they weren't worried about losing the moral high ground to murderers and thugs? And they won? Wow, maybe we should try that.
 
I'm sure him and the entire civil rights movement are totally shattered with regret over your disapproval, rolling around in their graves, suffering sysiphean torment of the mind for their horrible deeds

If your business was burned down would you approve? I dont think Jesus would be on board with senseless violence against the innocent, so getting his approval matters more than my opinion - he's got more followers than you, me or MLK.

Violence maybe, but not senseless violence. These are people for whom every other avenue has failed. When you're in that position, violence makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Violence against the innocent?

In my defense I did not posit that this should be RD. It is full of completely racist takes that deserve derisive treatment in my opinion. I knew it would be fwiw.

Also comparing minor property damage to human lives is such an awful take it should not be considered part of a RD imo either.

Who compared human lives to minor property damage and where are these racist takes? Are you planning on letting anyone else defend themselves against your accusations?

So you can be as terrible a human being as you like, as long as you're polite about it, and nobody can call you out on it. This is why civility politics sucks.

Tell that to all the people who lost their jobs because civility sucks. I think supporting looters and arsonists is terrible and if I saw my protests gave them cover to commit their crimes I'd find another way to express my opinions.

Let's just say I'd like to see the links to the statistics on BLM protesters burning people's houses down this spring/summer. If you're introducing it as a non-negligible factor, I'd expect you'd be able to cite countless examples... that is, unless you're strawmanning as usual.

I thought about asking Este how he'd feel if his business was burned down, but I didn't figure him for a business owner so I cut to the chase and asked how he'd feel if it was his house instead. But if it makes you happy, some people who saw their livelihoods destroyed may lose their houses too.

Why is it a strawman to replace somebody's business with Este's house when asking how he'd feel if his property was destroyed? Is he supposed to condemn burning his house but not his business?

So you're against MLK now?... Fascinating. First protecting the Klan, now denouncing MLK. I guess I could acknowledge your ideological consistency?

I'm against looting and burning neighborhoods and for free speech, if MLK was an apologist for riots I disagree with him. If the Klan was looting and burning cities I wouldn't call it peaceful protest or free speech. Please continue protecting us from straw men, I acknowledge your ideological inconsistency.

To be fair, protecting the Klan while denouncing the civil rights movement and MLK is not a new opinion in America. It is, in fact, quite a popular one in groups such as white supremacists and sociopaths, among others, some of whom even may also be libertarians.

You call that being fair? The ACLU protected the free speech of the Klan and neo-Nazis and I didn't denounce the civil rights movement, I denounced riots.

I wish people would stop lumping Trayvon Martin in with police shootings. Zimmerman got off because of a stupid stand your ground law

Zimmerman wasn't standing his ground, he was lying on his back getting beat up. He was acquitted because all the evidence showed it was self defense.

Sure. Fine. Whatever. But what you said was,

This suggests that the Black Lives Matter organisation is somehow directing not only protests (a dubious assertion itself), but that it is directing riots and indeed looting, and the the leaders of this organisation have the power, should they be so maliciously inclined, to direct this violence for financial gain. You surely understand that this is, not to put too fine a point on it, nonsense?

I didn't say they were directing riots, I said they're providing cover for those who do riot. And I said that violence - not at BLM's direction - could have the effect of coercing corporate donations. If rioters see their effort is filling the movement's coffers, why would they stop?
 
I thought about asking Este how he'd feel if his business was burned down, but I didn't figure him for a business owner so I cut to the chase and asked how he'd feel if it was his house instead. But if it makes you happy, some people who saw their livelihoods destroyed may lose their houses too.

Why is it a strawman to replace somebody's business with Este's house when asking how he'd feel if his property was destroyed? Is he supposed to condemn burning his house but not his business?

I've ran aside hustle that could be considered a business anyways, but w/e. I would be extremely distraught and upset. I would be pissed if they even just broke my windows or sprayed BLM on my doors. . . I would keep my bad luck in perspective of WTH is going on right now.

Comparing my broken windows or even my burnt down house to the death of hundreds of human beings and the ruining of tens of thousands of lives per year by a broken justice system is racist as hell.
 
It would be against forum policy for someone to suggest targets for protesters to be violent against. I'm not sure it would be a good idea, regardless. Personalized violence is much more likely to get the public against you, nearly immediately. We're visceral like that.

I guess we're going around and around because some people don't think that the violence is a symptom of a problem begging to be solved. People have no hope but to think the violence is necessary, which is a damnation of everyone who tried to help the problem before there was an outpouring of violence.

I still don't know how we could have gotten where we are without the initial violence. President FoxNews over-reached on Lafayette only because Tucker & Co. convinced him that the sensationalized violence was everywhere. Sergeant Dox-a-Lot chose to publicly escalate against a civilian who dared get 'protesty'.
 
If your business was burned down would you approve?

If one of your friends or family was murdered by the police and their killer never even charged, in some cases never even fired or disciplined - would you approve of nothing more than passive protesting, even when the police initiate additional violence on the protesters?
 
I certainly could not have stated the points anywhere near as eloquently as this law professor did. . .


https://www.pajiba.com/miscellaneou...R-7ZsVDhjLNp0dhX0-VJz1o#.XvVTS9K11B4.facebook

Spoiler eloquent text :

Professor REDACTED
Response to Concerned Students Memo
I am accepting the invitation in your memo, and the opportunity created by its content, to teach you. I would prefer to do it through a conversation, or especially through a series of conversations. Because I don’t know who you are. This isn’t possible. And there is an even more important reason for putting this in writing for the entire law school community. The larger issues that underlie your anger are timely, and they touch the entire law school community and transcend it.
This response to your memo is in two parts. Part I addresses the substantive and analytical lessons that can be learned from the memo. Part II addresses the lessons about writing that can be learned from the memo.
PART I
When your argument is based on a series of premises, you should be aware of them. You should also be aware that if any of these premises are factually flawed or illogical, or if the reader simply doesn’t accept them, your message will collapse from lack of support. Here is a short list of some of the premises in your memo, and my critique of them.
Premise: You have purchased, with your tuition dollars, the right to make demands upon the institution and the people in it and to dictate the content of your legal education.
Critique: I do not subscribe to the “consumer model” of legal education. As a consequence, I believe in your entitlement to assert your needs and desires even more strongly than you do. You would be just as entitled to express yourself to us if the law school were entirely tuition free This is because you are a student, not because you are a consumer. Besides, the natural and logical extension of your premise IS that students on a full scholarship are not entitled to assert their needs and desires to the same extent as other students (or maybe even at all). So, as you can see, arguments premised on consumerism are not likely to influence me. On the contrary, such a premise causes me to believe that you have a diminished view of legal education and the source of our responsibility as legal educators. This allows me to take any criticism from such a perspective less seriously than I otherwise would.
Premise: You are not paying for my opinion.
Critique: You are not paying me to pretend I don’t have one.
Premise: There is something called “Law” that is objective, fixed, and detached from and unaffected by the society in which it functions.
Critique: Law has no meaning or relevance outside of society. It both shapes and is shaped by the society in which it functions. Law is made by humans. It protects, controls, burdens, and liberates humans, non-human animals, nature, and inanimate physical objects. Like the humans who make it, Law is biased, noble, aspirational, short-sighted, flawed, messy, unclear, brilliant, and constantly changing. If you think that Law is merely a set of rules to be taught and learned, you are missing the beauty of Law and the point of law school.
Premise: You know more about legal education than I do.
Critique: You don’t.
Premise: There is an invisible “only” in front of the words “Black Lives Matter.”
Critique: There is a difference between focus and exclusion. If something matters, this does not imply that nothing else does. If l say “Law Students Matter” it does not imply that my colleagues, friends, and family do not. Here is something else that matters: context. The Black Lives Matter movement arose in a context of evidence that they don’t. When people are receiving messages from the culture in which they live that their lives are less important than other lives, it is a cruel distortion of reality to scold them for not being inclusive enough.
As applied specifically to the context in which I wore my Black Lives Matter shirt, I did this on a day in Criminal Procedure when we were explicitly discussing violence against the black community by police.
There are some implicit words that precede “Black Lives Matter,” and they go something like this:
Because of the brutalizing and killing of black people at the hands of the police and the indifference of society in general and the criminal justice system in particular. It is important that we say that…
This is, of course, far too long to fit on a shirt.
Black Lives Matter is about focus, not exclusion. As a general matter, seeing the world and the people in it in mutually exclusive, either/or terms impedes your own thought processes. If you wish to bear that intellectual consequence of a constricting ideology, that’s your decision. But this does not entitle you to project your either/or ideology onto people who do not share it.
Premise: Saying “Black Lives Matter” is an expression of racist hatred of white people.
Critique: “Black Lives Matter” is not a statement about white people. It does not exclude white people. It does not accuse white people, unless you are a specific white person who perpetrates, endorses, or ignores violence against black people. If you are one of those people, then somebody had better be saying something to you. (I am using “you” here in the general sense as a substitute for “one,” and not as in “you memo writers.”)
Premise: History doesn’t matter. Therefore sequences of cause and effect can be ignored (or even inverted).
Critique: To assert that the Black Lives Matter movement is about violence against the police is to ignore (and invert) the causal reality that the movement arose as an effect of police violence. Yes, the movement is about violence, in that it is about the subject of violence, but it is not about violent retaliation against the violence that it is about. It is a tragic fact that rage as a consequence of racial injustice sometimes gets enacted as violence (although not nearly as often as we might expect. Given the longstanding causes of that rage). We can all lament the fact that violence begets violence. But we can’t even do that if we ignore the violence that has done, and is doing, the begetting.
Premise: What you think something means is the same as what it actually means.
Critique: We are all entitled to (and should make every effort to) discern meaning. There can be reasonable differences of opinion about what something means. Something can even carry a meaning that has a larger life of its own, regardless of the meaning ascribed to it by a particular person. For example, the flag of the Confederacy carries the meaning of white supremacy. Even if a particular person thinks it only means “tradition.” One person, or even a group of people, cannot take away the flag’s odious meaning just by declaring that it means something else. Similarly, ascribing a negative meaning where none exists does not bring that meaning into being.
Unless you speak for the Black Lives Matter movement you have no authority to say what those words mean to the people in it. You certainly have no authority to say (and apparently not even any knowledge of) what it means to me. Your interpretation of something and your reaction to it based on that interpretation are not the some as what something actually means. Things in the world have meanings that exist outside of you.
The point I am making here is different from the points above that address your misunderstanding of the movement and the three words that embody it. This is a point about aggrandizement, not accuracy.
Part II
Because a long time ago (in a law school far, faraway) I was a teacher of legal writing, and because I still care about it very much, I will make some points relevant to formal and persuasive writing.
When you are writing to someone who has a formal title (e.g., Doctor, Professor, Dean, Judge, Senator) you should address him or her using that title. To do otherwise appears either ignorant or disrespectful. Whether or not you actually have any respect for the person is completely irrelevant. I take that back. It might be more important to follow the formal writing conventions when you don’t respect the individual person. Otherwise, you are risking trading the credibility of your entire message for the momentary satisfaction derived from communicating your disdain.
When you embed a statement in a dependent clause, you are signaling to the reader that it is of lesser importance (e.g. “While we can appreciate your sacred right o the freedom of speech, …”). If this was intentional, it undermines your message. If it was not intentional, it obscures it.
Frame the issue precisely and then focus on it. Don’t overgeneralize. You begin by stating that the issue is my “inappropriate conduct,” which sounds very general. Then you narrow the issue to “specifically” one event that occurred on a particular day last semester. Your use of hyperbolic rhetoric throughout the memo suggests that you really are angry about more than just a T-shirt. If it really is about just the T-shirt, then by overgeneralizing from a specific occurrence, your message is swamped by exaggeration. If it really is about other “conduct” on my part, I can’t tell what that is. By the end of the memo you have lost focus completely, generalizing (in statements that are unexplained and inexplicable) about bar passage and about the faculty and administration of the entire law school.
Be as clear as you can about everything, including the remedy you are seeking. You are not required to want anything specific, but I can’t tell whether you do or not. Perhaps you are demanding that I simply cease and desist from wearing a Black Lives Matter shirt. If that is it, the demand could have been stated clearly. Instead, it is mired in the generalities and the threatening and overblown rhetoric that I referred to above.
DO NOT YELL AT THE READER. The power of your message should come from carefully chosen words that have been thoughtfully assembled, not from the size of your fonts. Capitalizing words does not make them more powerful. It just makes you look angry.
In conclusion, I believe that every moment in life (and certainly in the life of law school) can be an occasion for teaching and learning. Thank you for creating an opportunity for me to put this deeply held belief into practice.
 
If your business was burned down would you approve?

So your position is it doesn't matter what a government does as long as it protects your property?

I guess that is libertarianism.
 
Funnily enough after MLK was assassinated by the CIA, peaceful resistance started to look pretty stupid to people.

On the contrary, his peaceful protests is what made him an effective threat. Jesus was killed by the Romans and look at what he accomplished.

Like I said, you are free to believe whatever you wish about MLK, but if you are looking for an activist leader who denied violence no matter absolutely not, you will not find it. Even Gandhi recommended violence, if there was no other option between it and acceptance of status quo, and he was as pacifist as they came.

This is because change is inherently a violent process—of the old being overcome by the new. Not all who seek change will seek it in rational and peaceful manner, but to abandon change because of it is a worse sin than not to advocate for change at all.

Jesus didn't preach violence

Well also the supermassive riots that followed King’s assassination did lead to rapid passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1968 so its not like its totally ineffective way to affect change.

People supported civil rights because of riots and not MLK? I'd say people supported civil rights in spite of the rioting.

You mean they weren't worried about losing the moral high ground to murderers and thugs? And they won? Wow, maybe we should try that.

You think looters and arsonists had the moral high ground? There's a difference between having the moral high ground via peaceful protests and not having it because of rioting. For some reason you think cops losing the moral high ground means rioters took it, nope. A pox on both their houses means neither have it.
 
I've ran aside hustle that could be considered a business anyways, but w/e. I would be extremely distraught and upset. I would be pissed if they even just broke my windows or sprayed BLM on my doors. . . I would keep my bad luck in perspective of WTH is going on right now.

Comparing my broken windows or even my burnt down house to the death of hundreds of human beings and the ruining of tens of thousands of lives per year by a broken justice system is racist as hell.

Who compared your broken window to all that? How many lives did Joe Biden end or ruin? Millions... And you're voting for him and most of those people were black or brown. Is that racist as hell?

If one of your friends or family was murdered by the police and their killer never even charged, in some cases never even fired or disciplined - would you approve of nothing more than passive protesting, even when the police initiate additional violence on the protesters?

I'd hate the cop, I wouldn't loot and burn the neighborhood. Did you get Floyd's relatives' endorsement for the rioting? If my passive protesting turned into rioting and more innocent people were being hurt I'd find another way to protest.

So your position is it doesn't matter what a government does as long as it protects your property?

I guess that is libertarianism.

If the government murdered my neighbor and the victim's family and friends tried to burn my house down, I'd want the government to stop them. Wouldn't you if it was your house?
 
Clearly not by protesters. I don't know where you're getting your news. Multiple eyeballs have been ruptured by police forces, though.

This isn't an armed take-over, it's a revolt against oppression. Sure, one can bleed over into the other, and an armed take-over is terrifying for anyone who's aware of history. But if you're overly afraid of the take-over, you will not see why the revolt happened.
 
I thought about asking Este how he'd feel if his business was burned down, but I didn't figure him for a business owner so I cut to the chase and asked how he'd feel if it was his house instead. But if it makes you happy, some people who saw their livelihoods destroyed may lose their houses too.
So no links then? Lovely.
Why is it a strawman to replace somebody's business with Este's house
That's the very definition of strawmanning. Now I see why you strawman so much. You don't really understand what it means.
I'm against looting and burning neighborhoods and for free speech, if MLK was an apologist for riots I disagree with him. If the Klan was looting and burning cities I wouldn't call it peaceful protest or free speech. Please continue protecting us from straw men, I acknowledge your ideological inconsistency.
So you're still denouncing MLK after defending the Klan?
If the Klan was looting and burning
If? If??? So... more Klan defending huh?
 
Paramedics should be injecting cops with ketamine then. And if the cop dies, the paramedic can just use the same excuse the cops use: "I was in fear for my life at the moment."
Nope, because we the public don't get to use that excuse on them... its a one way street. Just ask Kenneth Walker, Breonna Taylor's boyfriend.
 
If the government murdered my neighbor and the victim's family and friends tried to burn my house down, I'd want the government to stop them. Wouldn't you if it was your house?

I'm going to frame this post and put it on my wall with the simple caption "Libertarianism."

On the contrary, his peaceful protests is what made him an effective threat. Jesus was killed by the Romans and look at what he accomplished. People supported civil rights because of riots and not MLK? I'd say people supported civil rights in spite of the rioting.

I don't think there's any evidence for this. People did not support civil rights, and MLK was hated when he died. The subsequent week of violent rioting seems like a much more effective argument for the passage of the Civil Rights Act than "popular support," which did not exist.
 
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