[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[cardgame]

This just in: any protest of President-for-life Trump is illegal

what are you gonna do about it, vote? too bad we closed your polling station

god forbid we riot though, we'll lose all legitimacy and moral high ground

 

[Seon]

Typically speaking, if guns and weapons are the last argument of kings and oppressors, the riots and the revolution are the last argument of the masses.

All the inconsistencies in the social contract and our society will have come to roost eventually. We appear to be living in one such a time when the stress boils out into spontaneous action.

It is good that there is now palpable tension in the air. The old peace that stated that blacks were second class citizens was intolerable. Amidst this tension, we can see the discourse changing just as it did years ago with MLK and Malcolm X.

I sincerely hope these waves of national unrest becomes more commonplace as time goes on.

 

[Naktis]

So when the Iconoclasm will end ?

Or do you all actually want to rewrite the whole history your way ?

 

[Sommerswerd]

Not all of the protestors are peaceful, and not all of the police actions are justified or unjustified. Who is at fault depends on the specific sequence of events in each case.

I'm not sure what the purpose of this statement is other than some kind of disclaimer. I'll respond in kind with an example of what you just did. "Your arguments are going to be evaluated based on substantive merit and you can't inoculate yourself against that by preemptive rhetorical disclaimers."

Similarly, protests over the Atlanta shooting do not share the same credible basis as protests of the Floyd murder. Those incidents aren't even close to each other.

Irrelevant. They don't need to have "the same credible basis" or be "even close to each other" to be police abuse, racist, misconduct, wrongful, reprehensible, etc. The police should not have killed George Floyd in the manner that they did and the manner in which they killed Floyd is just one example of their systemic dysfunction. The police should not have killed Rayshawn Brooks in the manner that they did, and the manner in which they killed Brooks is yet another example of their systemic dysfunction. The manner in which Atlanta police have responded with their "blue flu" is yet another example of their systemic dysfunction.

Let me say this up front so it's clear: the people who are actually peacefully assembling and do nothing but shout/hold up signs are not guilty of what is described below. I will disrespect claims that I'm saying otherwise in future posts.

But the "people who are actually peacefully assembling and do nothing but shout/hold up signs" are being attacked by the police, shot, gassed, shoved to the ground etc., which is yet another example of the systemic dysfunction of the police as an institution. Regardless of whether you implicate the protests at large with characterizations about "rioters" and so on, and even if you expressly distinguish between 'protesters' and "protesters", what is undeniable is that while the police are an institution the "protesters" are not.

 

[Sommerswerd]

What the "community" (in quotes because it does not represent everyone living there) decided was to break the law outright and commit arson, among numerous other serious crimes. The same arson that a moment ago was condemned by multiple posters here because it might kill people (outside of the context of the property discussion). The "protesters" who are less than peaceful have also forced a reduction in access to food and basic public services...exactly the kind of "hate actions" implied by the destruction of a church above...only on a much larger and more directly measurable scale. Given the heavy usage rate of places like Target imply that they could reasonably claim to be "community centers" also with similarly credible basis as any church.

Now we have cities/areas where truckers rightly refuse to deliver more stuff to them, businesses canceling plans to enter or pulling out of the areas entirely (creating more food deserts and less law enforcement of any variety...something these communities once demanded rather than decried in general).

The implication is therefore that those in favor of "hate crimes" as defined for protected groups must define rioters as committing hate crimes, the criminals that burn things like police buildings as terrorists.

So essentially "moral equivalence". OK that's clear, thanks.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I think the emphasis/point is actually atheism, its just being made in an unnecessarily evasive and circuitous way. What's going on is the others in the conversation realize that's the real point so they're not taking the bait, which leads to the point being repeated in an increasingly obtuse manner to try and force the issue. That's why the discussion keeps moving in an increasingly tangential and abstract direction.

This discussion of whether a church is different from a statue in a legal, moral, economic and philosophical sense... is ripe for another thread.

Thanks. I was trying to sort out what had TMIT on such a committed path of idiotic posts. I forgot that of course he would get wound up over the idea that a church isn't treated like "just any other building."

Moderator Action: This is an RD thread. There is no room for personal attacks here. --LM
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Estebonrober]

So when the Iconoclasm will end ?

Or do you all actually want to rewrite the whole history your way ?

hahahahahahahaha. . . hahahahahahahaha

 

[Kyriakos]

Do you happen to have the author's edition of the Bible, which includes commentary that tells you that is what Jesus intended to say?

I think that only in the US would one see Jesus being used seriously to comment on current affairs

That said, clearly the "sword" in that phrase is a metaphor, I am sure you see it just fine. After all, he who lives by the sword...

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Moderator Action: Since this thread has devolved into nothing but arguments and a flood of reports, I am pausing the thread while we deal with them.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Moderator Action: The thread is reopened. I would suggest that the lot of you behave yourselves in the spirit of an RD thread. Thank you.

 

[Ajidica]

Or do you all actually want to rewrite the whole history your way ?

I mean, somebody has to write down history.

 

[Berzerker]

Listen closely and you can hear the voices of the unheard calling out from their moral high ground

https://www.startribune.com/minneap...-after-george-floyd-protests-riots/569930671/

over 1500 buildings damaged during 'peaceful protests'

 

[Estebonrober]

Listen closely and you can hear the voices of the unheard calling out from their moral high ground

https://www.startribune.com/minneap...-after-george-floyd-protests-riots/569930671/

over 1500 buildings damaged during 'peaceful protests'

Look at all that minor property damage! We must go back to murdering innocent civilians and oppressing whole groups of minorities for convenience's sake! Someone think of the statues!

./s

 

[Berzerker]

or they could burn your house down to protest murdering innocent civilians

 

[Sommerswerd]

or they could burn your house down to protest murdering innocent civilians

Pretty strawmanny

 

[Berzerker]

why is that? pretty hypocritical for people to support destroying other people's property when theirs is safe

 

[Seon]

You are always free to attempt a rational post-analysis of protesters behavior rather than push some trivial attempt to blame the protesters for the property damage.

If there was not a horrid systemic oppression against the minorities there will not be the protests, the riots, nor talks of revolution. The damage to livelihoods of innocents sucks, but the movement’s cause is too important to condemn wholesale for the actions of some of its parts.

These kinds of senseless violence is an inevitable part of any kind of movement to change the status quo, as noted by MLK. Indeed, if black people were to accept their status as victims of police violence and second class citizens, we can have a return to ‘normalcy’ and ‘peace’ by tomorrow. However, it would be peace and normalcy purchased by submission to continuation of injustice, and thus be an obnoxious peace, which will inevitably create larger and larger riots in the future.

If peace means submission to continuation of Normalized police violence, it would not be a desirable peace. This sense of tension would be far preferable to such outcome.

 

[Berzerker]

You're gonna preach about injustice on behalf of those perpetrating senseless violence against the innocent? Riots are the voice of the unheard? I thought better of MLK before I read that quote, now he just sounds like an apologist for senseless violence.

 

[Seon]

You're gonna preach about injustice on behalf of those perpetrating senseless violence against the innocent? Riots are the voice of the unheard? I thought better of MLK before I read that quote, now he just sounds like an apologist for senseless violence.

You are free to believe that if you wish. That was certainly the opinion of his many, many political rivals during the time he was alive.

And yet, you must note that he was successful in changing the status quo, not because he preached peace and understanding whenever possible, but because he brought a sword and declared war on injustice.

My rhetoric so far is carefully paraphrased and researched sections of his speeches and interviews. I can give you the relevant quotes if you wish.

 

[Berzerker]

But he didn't bring a sword, he led peaceful protests in spite of rationalizing the violence of others. Now if he offered that rationalization within a speech decrying the senseless violence against the innocent, that wouldn't be as bad. I understand he didn't want to upset his allies but right is right and wrong is wrong, senseless violence against the innocent aint right just because someone else wronged you.