Get it on...Bang a Gong Diplo thread

Wotan · Jun 3, 2007

Math is 180 for us ATM. 15 Scientists.

There is the question of us needing a friend too. GONG is the only candidate so if we want a friend they are what is offered. They will also give us better protection if we get them up in Tech though I am a bit puzzled about the slow tech pace they have managed so far. OTOH we have managed to get the philo free tech and popped 4 techs from GHs so that is basically the difference between us.

Question is do we join at the hip? That is basically what we want if we are to supply them with 24+ turns of research and we want a moratorium on hostilities until we are sole survivors on the map. 80 turns is (as was said by someone earlier) a "safe" period for them to make sure they are not threatened by our GLH.

We need them to deal with FREE. I know Kuningas abilities and he is the player I fear the most in this game. He is also not too concerned about the fact they risk Galleys crossing to GONG. Their designated target I would think? With Council on their other side they too have a natural direction of attack. They will soon be able to send Knights and with 2 70 shield Knights losing a Galley for every 2 knights is just a 20% increase in the price of a Knight on GONGs shore. A very different price to the 50% increase for a HM or Sword. I am pretty sure he has presented such a plan to his team. Maybe we should make GONG aware of the rather imminent risk they are facing? This is also why I would advocate a deal with GONG even if we are not 100% winners in such a deal. Let them pay us gold so we can rush units or keep tech research high in MA.

Another issue is GHs. I am pretty sure they are unaware of the (probable) GH on their resource island. That would add a third GH to the chances of getting both remaining techs. Or we could research Currency and wait with huts until only Construction remains? With 3 GHs the chance of getting one tech is ~80%.

Decisions, decisions... I guess it all comes down to our need of a friend and of a shield against FREE. We need to make them aware of the threat they face in their west. And our targets must be SABER -> Council. Reducing the Scientifics are absolutely crucial. So from that view GONG is also safe from us.

Our good start should hopefully be enough for us to take out SABER and leave BABE/GONG vs. FREE/Council. And if Council is as weak as you say then we should have a good shot at getting FREE into a defensive position with a steep uphill battle to get to Domination with BABE/GONG controlling a majority of the map.

GLib is not a bad idea. But I would advocate GONG build it. then keep them in the dark until such time as we want as many techs as possible from it. If we build it I fear FREE/Council is soon at Education, beelining for Navigation? While we could give GONG a good shot at a whole heap of techs by waiting to introduce Council.

Tubby Rower · Jun 3, 2007

those guys are honorable and I'd be willing to gift them with "future favors" to be determined later. be it techs, cash or military help

Whomp · Jun 4, 2007

I think we hammered it out pretty good. One thing I suggested is we get compensated somehow for our techs. Either building the Glib or future considerations. I also put the bug in their ear about FREE being their closest neighbor and to be careful. It's very close to the time when knights are in.
Let's get a beaker count so I can send it to JB tomorrow. They will finish IW this turn so we're talking CoL, MM, HBR, philo, ?wheel? and maths for cash. They'll try to get construction and currency from the huts.

Spoiler :

Wotan · Jun 4, 2007

OK, we send all techs we are up next turn?

BTW, in the discussion you talked about Galleys full of units sinking. That is not something likely to happen. You shipchain over hazardous waters. So empty Galleys will be left in the ocean/sea tiles. It leads to a slightly higher loss rate since they need to survive the turn prior to recieving the transported units but you never risk any land units sinking with a "drowning" ship.

ThERat · Jun 4, 2007

can someone summarize what is going to happen...I am a little confused

we send them all know techs (CoL etc) and they give us cash for that while they now switch off research until we got maths in 4...then they pop huts and hope to get construction and currency (don't they need a remaining tech to set on to pop another tech, like monarchy or so?)

How about the next layer of techs? Are we going to split research? They most likely won't be that fast...

Whomp · Jun 4, 2007

Thanks for the clarification Wotan. That makes sense.

Here's what I suggested to GONG...if they miss on currency and construction then they should build Glib (for compensation) so we can both catch up to Free and Council.

If they hit one or both then we'll recalibrate based on the beakers received and renegotiate the Glib (or whether it's built at all). What I need to send him is what the beaker values are for:
Math (though they'll give cash), CoL, MM, wheel, HBR and philo. These are the techs they're missing. Then we need to know the value of currency and construction. Having the base value and the discounted value would be helpful. Can someone post these numbers, please.

I also suggested we start on constuction just in case they miss on the huts. I think the chances are pretty good they'll miss one although I wonder if the stats have been adjusted because we've popped four techs.

Wotan · Jun 4, 2007

BASE COSTS: Math: 240, CoL 300, MM 360, Wheel 120, HBR 150, Philo 180

Current costs (according to CA2): Math 192, CoL 270, MM 324, Wheel 108, HBR 135, Philo 162

But the CA2 costs are apparently higher than the in game costs... Math is 180 in game. So maybe we should use base costs as a basis for calculations? Why would all costs for researched techs be 10% lower but Math that we are currently pursuing 20%??? More contacts have eg. The Wheel or CoL? We also know SABER is back MM while Council have it and both of them have The Wheel so diffeneces are odd in CA2?

EDIT: Must have something to do with CA2 not showing who has what? So it only take one team (us) into account when showing values of researched techs. No idea why Math is so miscalculated though...

ThERat · Jun 4, 2007

during the last SGOTM, I found that tech costs according to CA2 are always a little off from the real game, though CA2 always indicated lower costs

Whomp · Jun 4, 2007

Here's a pm from JB.

jb1964 said:
'll be on later this evening but wanted to prime the pump, so to speak, before that.

Prince started sending you gold. He didn't have 150g laying around so it's going to come in installments.

We're prepped to pop the huts the turn we get the Techs.

I know you're interested in stuffing Sabre but is there a way we can use them to counter the other block? Making a 3v2 alliance for the time being and saving the Sabre bloodshed for a later date?

Big picture, 3 kills 2, we kill Sabre, we shake hands and wish each other the best.

Whether or not we work out a 3v2 deal with them we need you to string them along w/ discussions, and maybe even a deal or two, to keep them from going after GLib w/ a pre-build. Can you spell out their current techs for us and any assessment you may have as to pre-builds?

We'll make a run at the GLib but we don't have anything pre built that would make it a sure thing. We had a run at pumping out units to cover our shores that took the focus off bigger infrasturcture builds. We think we can still get it but the risk being Sabre might leverage a pre-build and the upside is we'll both be getting more from the Free/Council techs machine if delayed.

Now for the real good news. We have two sources of iron.

Wotan · Jun 4, 2007

OK, I will send the techs next turn. If "PrinceM" goes online again and spot he forgot to include the save.

Why do they want to save SABER??? Strange? And two sources of Iron, so what? It is not helping nayone until Navigation or Magnetism. And when oceans are safe landing can happen anywhere so we really need to fight as many as possible before that happens. Not really sure how they think ATM???

Since we are in contact with everyone in a turn or two and GONG is not we can pretty much decide when to "activate" GLib. It is justa question of us withholding the crucial contact until the right moment. Unless Free is devious enough to supply it to limit the effect of GLib, I know I would...

Whomp · Jun 4, 2007

I think they're feeling a 3v2 makes sense and getting Saber's free tech. I don't even want sipaphis to see knighthood!

We may have to come clean at some point.

Just a reminder click "Accept" when sending the techs.
This means we are not sending a proposal, but accepting to just pass the techs over. Then you click Send.

Wotan · Jun 4, 2007

OK, thanks for the reminder on trade. That is if I ever get a save to play? Prince forgot to attach it...

Tubby Rower · Jun 4, 2007

we should tell them when our ships set sail imo. That would show some trust that they wouldn't tell Saber but at the same time we need to give them enough so that they don't promise anything that would unknowingly be false.

Whomp · Jun 4, 2007

I tried to deflect the Saber talk as much as possible.
We need to start thinking of excuses on why we're not dealing with Saber. My thoughts are we simply had a better offer but are open to acquiring their MA tech.

Spoiler :

Whomp · Jun 8, 2007

From JB...We'll finish maths on turn 100, correct?
Eeesh on the map....

JB1964 said:
So, are ya'll willing to provide the map?

If so, what's the price?

Lastly, what turn are you going to finish Math?

Wotan · Jun 8, 2007

That post also showed up in the turn tracker!!!!!!!!!

This is really bad... Not only does it reveal our position in the tech race it shows we are quite cosy with GONG. Sorry but unbelievable screwup I guess. And with absolutely no way of recovering from it.... even you edit it fast it will have been sent as a notification to everyone subscribing to the thread. And tell GONG we are not really keen on giving them the map, I guess. Sigh..... How was this possible, it must be a bug in CFC forum for sure. You cannot have posted it in two threads??????

Whomp · Jun 8, 2007

I had two windows open trying to see what turn we were on. I'm really sorry everyone.

It's deleted...

Wotan · Jun 8, 2007

Human error, that is probably more OK. Would have been absolutely disastrous if it was a bug.

But on second thought, am i correct in assuming that a post goes into every thread you are actively looking at (in different windows). That is still a bug in my book.

BCLG100 · Jun 8, 2007

From memory not all the post shows up just the first line or so, if so it could just be a normal diplo talk, an error yes but hopefully shouldnt be too costly.

edit= i dont know what browser whomp is using but what i assume he meant was he just read one thread and went to the quick reply of another thread without noticing what it was, not that one post gets posted in every browser.

Whomp · Jun 8, 2007

I spoke with xyzy and Gen W and they have agreed to not share the info in the thread. Sorry everyone.

As BC said I posted in the wrong thread because I had too many open including the turntracker.

Get it on...Bang a Gong Diplo thread

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