Ghandhi (EC) Emperor Cookbook! Let the fun begin.

[mjg5591]

I need to finish my save after work tomorrow and then close round. You have time people. I wont say this round has been easy.

Does this mean you have wiped 1 or 2 civs off map already?

 

[lymond]

Spoiler :

I'm thinking now that the thing that really saved my round - if you can call it that - was Monty plopping down that crap city next to Genghis which I captured and immediately gifted to the Mongols - it would a been a drain anyway and likely flipped. Allowed me to bribe the Mongols into war with Monty, same religion and good terms at the end of round. Toku and Brennus -- not so much!

Toku is clearly the biggest threat to everyone who survived I imagine. He has a fairly substantial military tech lead. It will be interesting to see how we can play out of this mess.

 

[mjg5591]

@ lymond

Spoiler :

Thing that helped me for this round was that it was my save, and I pretty much knew Monty was coming for us.

In my save, I been thinking that Toku should be the target of next attack as he is @ war with Brennus and he doesn't Have LB's yet. Monty in my save has LB's. Even though the WE and cat war I was planning wouldn't be that bad against LB's. GK is at war with Monty now also. So I think Toku in my save would be nice Juicy target with that 2 gem capital.

This was defiently a tough round. I got lucky with Hindu and Monty going first christianity then to buddaism.

I did like how you just wiped out Monty in your game. That capital is nice.

When voting round comes i'll look more in depth at saves. Real life has been real busy lately. Should calm down in next few days I hope.

 

[lymond]

@mjg

Spoiler :

Monty had longbows? I don't seem to recall that he did, but maybe I did kill off one. Seemed like he primarily built axe and jags until I took his iron. It could be he had feud and built archers with the intent of upgrading, which the AI does a lot. However, I don't think he had any money to do so.

Basically, after repelling his first attack, I was finally able to put a stack of axe/spear/chariot and eventually swords with that iron near Delhi and send to the city just east of Bombay, which was monty's sole metal, I think. He had a lot of units. I also sent axe to the fairly new crap city near Genghis, which I took easily and gifted to the Mongols. After taking that city near bombay (ha...those Aztec city names are impossible to remember and all just a few letters off anyway) and made peace with Monty and started to recoup. I put small combo stack on the hills, forest around this city which helped when Monty declared on me not long after. At this point, I was already in a mode to prepare a decent stack his way, plus my GG chariot healer. I pillaged and took the cap, but failed miserable by making a mistake on that last tundra/seafood city. I didn't synch up timely the turn after Genghis suicided his stack on the city - I'm sure I could have taken it but I was distracted by Toku declare on me and scrambling to defend the southern border. I basically forgot to check my units - I had fortified them the turn before so they didn't pop active to remind. Of course, I made Monty give whatever he had for peace. I kept and axemen on a hill next to Monty's former cap that allowed me to see the adjacent tile to his last city. When I saw another Mongol stack up there I sent all that I had up there at the time - and axe and sword - and attack Monty one last time. My opportunistic attack panned out, as Genghis left him with one measly archer.

 

[mjg5591]

@mjg

Spoiler :

Monty had longbows? I don't seem to recall that he did, but maybe I did kill off one. Seemed like he primarily built axe and jags until I took his iron. It could be he had feud and built archers with the intent of upgrading, which the AI does a lot. However, I don't think he had any money to do so.

Basically, after repelling his first attack, I was finally able to put a stack of axe/spear/chariot and eventually swords with that iron near Delhi and send to the city just east of Bombay, which was monty's sole metal, I think. He had a lot of units. I also sent axe to the fairly new crap city near Genghis, which I took easily and gifted to the Mongols. After taking that city near bombay (ha...those Aztec city names are impossible to remember and all just a few letters off anyway) and made peace with Monty and started to recoup. I put small combo stack on the hills, forest around this city which helped when Monty declared on me not long after. At this point, I was already in a mode to prepare a decent stack his way, plus my GG chariot healer. I pillaged and took the cap, but failed miserable by making a mistake on that last tundra/seafood city. I didn't synch up timely the turn after Genghis suicided his stack on the city - I'm sure I could have taken it but I was distracted by Toku declare on me and scrambling to defend the southern border. I basically forgot to check my units - I had fortified them the turn before so they didn't pop active to remind. Of course, I made Monty give whatever he had for peace. I kept and axemen on a hill next to Monty's former cap that allowed me to see the adjacent tile to his last city. When I saw another Mongol stack up there I sent all that I had up there at the time - and axe and sword - and attack Monty one last time. My opportunistic attack panned out, as Genghis left him with one measly archer.

Spoiler :

I'm sorry I meant that at the end of my round 2 Monty got LB's.

I did like your gifting the city idea to the mongols. Seems like you were unlucky Toku came after you. In my 2nd round he was at it with Brennus most of the time.

 

[Gumbolt]

Lets give this round 2 more hours and I will complete my save.

Spoiler :

I had taken Monty's capital but he had 10 units sitting around after that. Wow.

 

[Gumbolt]

Okay I wont be winning this round.

Spoiler :

I connected copper asap but I have struggled since all the wars began. Like most save monty dow and eventually i took his capital. Sadly after I took peace he dow again and took back his capital. many units later and bribing KK into the war he is down to just his capital. Tried to take the capital and lost my mini stack. Hills are a pain.

Troble was Toku dow me later. Now I am stuck in a war with Toku that is leaving my capital under seige. War wise I lost a lot of units retaking monty capital and 2 other cities.

Techwise someone has taoism and the Incas are teching way ahead of me. This is going to be tough.

Forgot to rename save. ooops. I hereby close this round. Congrats to anyone who completed this tough round. I suggest we vote for strongest save next round. lol

 

[Gumbolt]

We will go ahead and vote for 2-3 days. Hopefully finish by Saturday/Sunday or when all that have played have voted. Its not always about voting for the best save but the save that will be most interesting or challenging to play. Anyone that submitted a save is free to vote. (yeah better vote for strongest save this round )

Please rank your top 3 in order.

First place 3 points.
Second place 2 points
Third place. 1 point.

PLEASE NOTE!! To keep voting fair you cant vote for your own save. You are expected to vote for 3 saves and give reasons for your voting. Remember this is a learning game. I would encourage everyone to act within the spirit that the cookbook is intended.

Anyway here are the saves:

John Edwards

MJG5591

Lymond

Gumbolt

Tornath

CBPE (2nd attempt but was a tough save)



Voting will end on Sunday 6pm GMT or at the point where everyone from this round has voted or there is a clear winner. Should be a quick voting round!!!
__________________

 

[Gumbolt]

Overall JE save is swamped with Toku war units so a no no.

MJG has a good tech situation and a nice stack. The land area is small but save is workable.

Lymond has taken out Monty but the cities are all size 1-2 and suffering. Tech situation is terrible.

Out of all four saves MJG is probably the strongest.

My save war with Toku is worrying and there is some tech freak out in the unknown on my save.

 

[kossin]

Obviously, a rush (or some chokes - esp. Toku) in round 1 was the best approach to take for this map. Even if that was successful, it was not a guaranteed win by any means.

The other approach was making crappy cities and gifting them to the AI so they'd be less inclined to war with you. Getting them to Pleased allows you to bribe wars...

It's of course too late to do that now with the save that was chosen in round 1.
The game is still winnable from here I would say but it will require good warring, good whip use and careful attention to diplomacy.

Good luck guys, I hope you didn't make it too hard on yourselves by not picking one of the 'easy' saves from round 1.

 

[Gumbolt]

Obviously, a rush (or some chokes - esp. Toku) in round 1 was the best approach to take for this map. Even if that was successful, it was not a guaranteed win by any means.

The other approach was making crappy cities and gifting them to the AI so they'd be less inclined to war with you. Getting them to Pleased allows you to bribe wars...

It's of course too late to do that now with the save that was chosen in round 1.
The game is still winnable from here I would say but it will require good warring, good whip use and careful attention to diplomacy.

Good luck guys, I hope you didn't make it too hard on yourselves by not picking one of the 'easy' saves from round 1.

Which save would you of gone with now? A challenge is more fun than a walk over. Lets not forget we have a great leader with strong techs.

 

[kossin]

It certainly is more fun and better for learning. However you can see the drop in participation... 17 vs 4 now is quite significant. Either players didn't want to post their results or didn't want to play... But I guess this is the same way that happened in the Shaka Cookbook.

In the end, I still think the goal of the Cookbook is to help players move to Emperor, help some get comfortable on Emperor and help some move to Immortal.
Picking this save pretty much removed the first option I think. The players not accustomed to Emperor would still have struggled with the stronger saves from round 1, the game was by no means won in any save - but in a very good position however.

Epic speed is biting you in the lower back as well as there are more DoW checks than there would be on Normal

 

[Toranth]

I'll post my full report in a day or so, but I'm really wondering how many survivors there will be for this round...

It's been a little more than a day or two, but here's my report. Lots of mistakes this round, but it could have ended up worse.

Spoiler :

Started off the round having all my workers go hook up the copper, while producing an extra chariot or two. As soon as the copper was connected, switched to axes, and began whipping/chopping out an army. Started researching Iron Working as soon as pottery was done.

In 1050BC, Monty declared, and moved a stack next to Bombay. However, my defenders were too tough, and he refused to attack, instead wandering around in circles for a few turns. Eventually, I got him off the forests and hills, and managed to wipe out most of his attack force.
This is where I made mistake #1: Monty was willing to take peace here, but I refused in favor of pushing the counterattack.

By 775BC, I'd captured Teotihuacan, the nearest of Monty's cities. A good city, this had pigs, Iron, and several hills. Unfortunately, here I made mistake #2: I couldn't leave well enough alone, and pushed up towards the capital.

Too many troops were in Tenochtitlan when I got there, but threatening his only other city made him move most of his troops there - An error in judgement I took advantage of with a quick reverse. Taking Tenochtitlan was too expensive though, and I was forced to sue for peace in 425BC, even though it got me nothing.

I regrouped, rewhipped, and rechopped to restore my army, then went after Monty again (Minor mistake, as this gave me a -1 "Declared on our friend!" penalty with Khan and Toku). I wiped him out in 65BC, but that turn suddenly Khan and Tokugawa declared war on me.

More heavy whipping and chopping occurred, and Toku's stack suicided against my capital. The defenders were enough to go capture Nara (SW of the capital), and force some concessions for ending the war.

Khan, on the other hand, did very little aggressively. I destroyed a few wandering troops, then marched my Anti-Monty Army from the north down, and some new troops (featuring lots of spearmen) east. And here's where I made mistake #3: When I captured New Sarai, I razed it.

This gave me a permanent -2 diplo hit with Khan, and as soon as I turned my back, he resettled the exact same spot. If I'd kept the city, then gifted it back, the situation would have been the same, but I'd be +2 to +4 higher relations with him.

Anyways, I also took (and kept) Old Sarai to the north, as a launching point for a soon to come follow up invasion. These losses were enough to convince Khan to pay me to go away, so I did.

And then I discovered great big mistake #4: At the start of the round, I'd whipped away my scientists, and forgotten to restore them latter. Hence, I did almost no research during this round. I've readjusted now that the wars are over, and it's not so bad, but we're behind. A lot.

State of the world:
We're behind in tech:

Far to much friendly between the AIs and not enough with us:

Army is not too bad, and we picked up several Great Generals during the fray. I settled all three of them, in Delhi, Bombay, and Pataliputra, so I could get as many level 3 troops as quickly as possible. Given the way I was using them up, I don't think a healer would have been very useful.

Relative power is low, but not too bad.

Economic situation could be better. We're living off trades right now. Still getting 35bpt, though.

Finally, the maps.
North End:

South End:

As an afterthough, more bad news:

Tokugawa has his Samurai, and much more, right outside of our front door.


Overall, I'd say we're in a not very good position, but not guaranteed out of it yet. I think we can take Khan soon, and then turtle to keep Toku off our back long enough to take advantage of all the huge tracts of land we'll have earned.

As an aside, I did a replay of this round later, and it turned out very different. When/where might be a good place to post that replay, to do some compare, contrast, and criticize with the other rounds? Posting it here and now seems potentially confusing, but I'd very much like to get some feedback on the things I chose to do differently.

 

[CBPE]

As Kossin suggested me, I've replayed the round.
I don't think this could be considerated a proper save (and surely won't be one of the best), anyway, I'm going to show my round 'cause I think It might be quite interesting about the learning purpose.
I've tried a tip that I've read on the forum but that I'd never applied before.

Spoiler :

Monty declared against me as expected, but this time I was (obviously) able to keep bombay.

This is the trick on which I was talking about previously.
I'll show it in detail, 'cause I think it could be interesting, and also maybe (and probably) you will see something that I've missed:

Spoiler :

While the war went on, I've built a settler that I've sent on the west: it passed through Toku's bounders just in time:

Spoiler :

I was searching for the worse spot to settle a city, and I'd done it 2n1w from the rice, unfortunely exactly where a Monty's archer was:

Spoiler :

But I couldn't wait, so I've choosen this other spot: yes, it's not exactly the most terrible city I've ever seen, but I couldn't found anywhere worse....

Spoiler :

So, I gifted the city to this guy:

Spoiler :

Yes, burning a settler in early game and during a war is a waste, but all in all it costs 90 hammers (I don't remember how much on Epic)...
How many hammers would I spent if Toku declares against me?
Moreover, he surely will colonize this part of the map anyway, and it seem me that this can only encumber him.

So, we became good friends. I immediately opened the borders with him and traded Mysticism for Fishing:

Spoiler :

During the war, I tried to save some resource to keep economy and research go on, so I obtaitned a GS that I used to build an academy in Delhi:

Spoiler :

This probably was a big mistake. Maybe it was better to build it in Vjayanagara.

I've also founded this nice city before Toku could claim all the available land.

Spoiler :

It was a bit early 'cause I was far from IW but I had no choice.
It would become a nice GP farm, I think.

About Monty's war, I was forced to attack his capital even with not the best odds (GPT had became negative at 0%) and also I was not much lucky, so I've failed, but I was able to capture this city:

Spoiler :

It' so so, but I've decided to keep it anyway 'cause I absolute need LAND!

I've also pillaged all his improvements: with resulting gold I've researched Aestetichs, that I've traded for Alphabet and then for several techs like IW and others.
At this point we've made peace. I gained a city and 1 worker.

Meanwhile, Toku, Monty and GK becamed Judaist, so I converted too.

Spoiler :

Brennus it's far and he cannot hurt me for now, and HC it's about a quite good guy

It seemed that all in all things were going in the right way (Monty soon became pleased towards me too) and I thought I could recover my economy, but in one moment:

Spoiler :

I was not prepared, so I've lost Pataliputra (the copper city). Fortunately, I'd discovered two sources of Iron available, but I could not be able to hook up it soon, either cause GK also stolen me a couple of workers, as 'cause I'd to wait a border pop.

Monty made me this request:

Spoiler :

I accepted only to accomplish him, having not to gain and not to lose from it

I've tried to reconquer Pata... but I've failed.
I was able to capture a GK's border city that autorazed, but I could settle a new city (Calcutta) in the resulting available land.

But the war was going bad, and GK was about to capture it.

Spoiler :

He asked for this city to make peace, so I accepted seeing that I'd lost it anyway

In the war with GK I've lost a city and a couple of workers, so I've played it very bad

Now this is the situation: 5 city, always in war with Brennus (without loosing anything but he refuse to make peace)

Spoiler :

I'm the worst enemy of HC (I demanded him Construction as tribute) and Monty has become Hinduist.
Next turn I'll have HR, so the plan should be Elephants+Caths against Monty which is weak and which has sent his stack far against Brennus.

But GK has full hand, and I think is about to declare again against me.
Maybe I can demand him a tribute to gain 10 turns, but could be suffice?

 

[Gumbolt]

Okay I have added Toranth and CBPE to voting.

I do think these saves struggled techwise. Running two scientists and teching Aesthetics does help.

 

[Gumbolt]

Lets get voting. The sooner we start sooner we finish and start next round. Sunday is only a guideline. We could be all voted by 6pm tomorrow. If a save is clearly strongest we could close vote early.

Need some opinions now though!!

 

[Soirana]

Obviously, a rush (or some chokes - esp. Toku) in round 1 was the best approach to take for this map. Even if that was successful, it was not a guaranteed win by any means.

Given fact that with this tech pace you won't have way to counter Samaurais IU'd say yes.

 

[John Edwards]

Lets get voting. The sooner we start sooner we finish and start next round. Sunday is only a guideline. We could be all voted by 6pm tomorrow. If a save is clearly strongest we could close vote early.

Need some opinions now though!!

Wasn't Churchdown Yank going to give this round a go?

 

[Churchdown Yank]

Wasn't Churchdown Yank going to give this round a go?

I'm about halfway through my round - Only had a little time yesterday to play. It'll be this evening (UK time before I finish) which I can do, but don't wait for me if there are ok options for round 3. I haven't had a chance to look at them yet.

Here's a quick summary of the first half of my round 2 about 70 AD IIRC

Spoiler :

Monty came for me, but I was ready. Had the copper hooked up and a few axes. I quickly went on counterattack and took 2 cities including his cap. I managed to keep going (barely) economically and teched a few more things. I've got a decent size military, but couldn't take any more of monty's cities so sued for peace. No real issues diplo wise. No wonders. No additional cities except for those captured from monty. Behind in tech (obviously) but managing to squirt out the odd tech here and there due to running scientists. Popped GS - academy...

I've got to run to work - so I'll catch up with what's been happening this afternoon

 

[Ambro]

I'm trying to get round to playing this but I'm still in the BC's. Spoiler for anyone else still playing.

Spoiler :

I had the Monty War but once I'd sorted him out I lost a bit of focus. Figured Toku was readying for me so moved my stack down and in he came with Monty (Monty had no troops left though so he wasn't an issue). I've now taken Toku's capital and burnt one of his cities (well done Toku, defending with a Horse archer was an excellent plan ). Unfortunately, even though I'm once again in control (although I'm a little nervous about KK) and can grab peace and am probably tech leader (me or Toku and he will pay with all his techs for peace) I'm not really sure where to go. I want to take another of his cities to ease cultural pressure on his old capital.

Think I'll pile into one more city and probably burn it (just can't afford all the cities and stuff I've got). This will cause cultural issues again later but I intend on burning Toku to the ground eventually anyway.

Drawing the defenders out of the cities, getting them to attack and not letting them sit on forests and hills too often were really really important for these wars. Even let Monty kill a couple of free chariots just to hold him off the forested hills when the war started, this had the unexpected bonus of him splitting his troops, no idea why he did it but it was a nice result that saved me several turns of war.