GK2- The Training Day Experiment

[Chieftess]

Moderator Action: tmarze, stop making multiple posts one after another. Use the edit button, otherwise, your posts are spam.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[scoutsout]

CivFanatic Action: Tmarze - the Khan says you're in the game. So... what Chieftess said - read the link she posted and let it roll off - as far as I'm concerned - you're forgiven, etc.

I think the destructors are gonna give this another day or three to give you a chance to catch up on your readin'. Somethin' tells me Saturday's gonna be fun!

Sheesh - nothin' like a moderator puttin' the ol' foot down to bring a thread to a screeching halt, huh? (Pleeeze Cheiftess, if you're reading this, don't vaporize me for making light...)

 

[Sir Bugsy]

On to the next discussion. It sounds like most of the team wants to look from the top of the mountain with the scout.

Here is the view (another mad-bax twist):

Where do we want to settle? Why?

When we get everyone's opinion on those two questions, we'll cut everyone loose to play the first 10 turns.

For those that haven't discussed research options and worker movement, please add that in also.

 

[shoguntaka]

The image doesn't show up, something wrong with the upload server?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Yes, it seems to be down at the moment.

 

[scoutsout]

Well Sir Bugsy, two things immediately came to mind when I looked at that screen cap. The first thought was something like "Aw... dangit! That wine over there is gonna force me to re-think my worker moves..." but it's a nice problem to have! The second thought was that I'm really gonna miss my Egyptian workers...

To finish the turn: Settler moves NW. I still like that spot. The only other way to get the wine and the cattle is to go N, and I don't like settling on a BG tile...

Some may remember that I originally advocated working the 2 BG and Cattle tiles first. (Outlined in blue on my edit of the screencap.) Here's how I'd change my play from this point:

Revised worker orders: Next turn, settler builds our capitol, worker moves NW. As much as I just hate to move him (again), this seems the best move to make to capture the power of both the cattle and the wine early. On the next turn, the worker starts to build a road. Once road is built, worker moves to cattle and irrigates, then builds road. That will bring another decision point - go back SW and mine, or cross river and work on wine tile? Since he built road on the BG tile, we'd have the option to do either one.

From what I can see at this point, this is how I size up the overall situation:

The yellow dots look like a couple of potential spots for a city, perhaps a second granary city. The blue dots look worth scouting with an eye towards a high-shield (unit building) city site. The pale yellow lines show the road network I'd like to get early. I already plan to connect the BG, the cattle, and the wines. Adding a road to the tile South of the wines would allow a settler standing in the capitol to build a city on either yellow dot the very next turn. That same settler could build us a city on a blue dot in one more turn. (The red lines show settler moves made from a roaded to an unimproved tile.)

The 3 purple ellipses look like logical next moves for the scout. The desert and floodplains have me a little...I dunno, I don't like 'em. I hope the area SW of our capitol won't be a big barren wasteland. As for the floodplains, well, I'm a builder, and I'm not good at cities with low shields. Worker factory maybe? Whip 'em early and often?

 

[yoshi74]

Very good analysis scoutsout

While i can understand your dislike for too many flood plains, with some hills nearby a city in it can be quite productive as well. Also consider the commercial value. While maybe not a productive powerhouse, the bonus commerce from the river and the sheer size of the city and give a lot of money/science. And is, as you mentioned, a good way to get the importend buildings for happiness, money and science build.
Last, but not least it can be quite succesfull for settler/worker production.

Flood plain cities are somewhat harder to get to work correctly (because the risk of disease and the tentency for too fast growing), so i doubt its placed by random right near the starting locations. Theres really much to learn in the SG, not just for the players in the roster

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I'm sure that mad-bax placed that flood plain there for just such an experience.

 

[mad-bax]

I tried to put as many different possibilities into one start as I could. Floodplains had to be included because learning how to handle high food, low shield, disease ridden towns is imprortant.

In fact most of the terrain is as per the map generators wishes and I hope the changes that are due to me are not too obvious.

BTW. What difference does the wine make to the start position?
If it wasn't there, in what way would it hurt?

 

[shoguntaka]

I think I see the best spot, but it'll take the settler 4 turns to move, move, move, and then settle. It's the tile NE of the wine. It'll include a cattle, 3 BGs, the wine, 1 floodplain, 3 mountains, and one hills. And it's still on the river.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Question for Shogun. What advantage would the tile NE of the wines give you over the tile NW of where the settler is now?

Is that advantage (if there is one) worth the loss of three additional turns of shield production, science research, food production, and commerce?

 

[scoutsout]

WooHoo!!! I just wrapped my first legit Monarch level game in C3C with a Space Race win in 1956! Okay - so maybe it's not really enough to brag about, but it was a hard-fought win, and I'm pleased.

Yoshi - thanks for the compliment on the analysis. Your points on making effective use of floodplain cities are on point. I suspect floodplain cities are a weakness for most beginning/ intermediate "builder" types, and working on the weaknesses is what I have to do to get better. Dangit. Yes, I joined this SG for that too. Dangit.

Sir Bugsy - I suspect you're right - and my gut tells me that Mad Bax worked something in here for everybody's weakness... As long as we don't find the Persians, Greeks, Aztecs, and Zulu all on our borders, we'll be okay. I wouldn't particularly like finding the French next door either, but I do like it when Joan gets that G.I. Jane thing goin' on... but I digress...

Shogun - um - if you really want the two bonus resources before the border expansion you could put the settler down on the tile east of the wines... but dang... I dunno ... I normally plop the settler down wherever he is. On rare occasions I'll move him...once. Any more than that and you better be real sure that's what you want to do...

Mad-Bax - on the wine - I'm not sure how much it would "hurt" if the wine wasn't there... but maybe that's something in my play style. I generally try to build a second granary city if my starting postion doesn't have true "settler factory" potential.

In any event - the wine has the potential to be a huge benefit. I think there are 2 luxuries that produce bonuses besides commerce (and happiness). It seems like furs will give you another shield, and wines will give you another food. (...to say nothing of the happiness benefit after I flog that first citizen...)

One thing I'll be sure to look at after I download the savegame is whether that square produces any shields or not. That's not a big deal, just a finer point. If that's a BG/Wine, it's even better!

At any rate - a city founded NW of the settler's present location appears to have settler factory potential.

 

[yoshi74]

One thing i learned in another SG is that wine is a food resource as similar to cows and wheats and beer . With this in mind, whats the value of the vine, and how (and why) should the tile be improved.

@shogun
3 moves are a lot for settler, and you loose importent turns. Is the position you mentioned good enough to take these 3 turns back later, compared to any closer position. If, then why?

 

[mad-bax]

Rule #1. Never, ever ever move the settler from the start, ever.
Rule #2. Disregard rule 1 if by moving ONE tile you can get a food bonus or water (fresh or salt).

Even moving 1 tile is extremely costly. Founding your city 1 turn late pins a big target to your back. The way power is calculated by the game will mean that at the end of the second turn you will have half the power of all the other civs. You are more likely to be attacked. Moving the settler is a loss of tempo. If it were chess and you gave your opponent the firts two moves you would be well on the way to losing. The same is true for civ. To move a settler one tile requires a compelling reason. To move the settler 2 tiles is unjustifiable unless playing OCC. To move a settler more than that is just suicide.

Moving a settler just to get a lux, or just to be on a hill, or just to get an extra BG or forest is not a good idea IMO.

 

[Turner]

Agree with m-b here. Moving the settler can be very costly. Set your first city where ever, to get it going, and make much better decisions with your following settlers.

 

[infoman]

If we were on a lower level I would move one space NW to get the wines in the city radius after growth. But now, alomg with M-B's and Turner's comments, I would settle where we are at. The city will be on a river (bonus commerce) and have several BG's to use. The cow and wines can be used by our 2nd & 3rd cities unless better spots appear.

 

[mad-bax]

Infoman: that's not really what I said. I was not advocating settling on the spot. I was just asking whether there was enough justification not to.

As you say, the current location is wet and productive, so why move? <It's a question, not an opinion>

 

[shoguntaka]

You guys convinced me.

Let's move the settler NW and settle on that forest.

Regarding that wine, let's irrigate it (after the cattle).

Because the wine gives +1 food, and since it's on the grassland it gives total of 3 food but only bounced back down to 2 due to the depotism government. If we irrigate it up to 4 food, it'll give us 3 food total.

If we irrigate both the cattle and the wine, we'll have a settler factory: +1 excess food from wine, +2 excess food from cattle, and +2 excess food from the city radius itself.

I want to try the 6-turn settler factory that mad-bax mentioned, I've never had one before (I've had experiences with 4-turn settler factory).

 

[mad-bax]

If you want a 6 turn settler factory then what you suggested will give too much food. Your calculations are right and the city will be at +5 food if you do what you say. This will lead to a 4 turn settler factory

For a 6 turn settler factory you want 10 food in three turns and as many shields as possible. The best place for a 4 turn pump and a 6 turn pump are not necessarily the same.

 

[shoguntaka]

Then the six-turn settler factory would be this:
3-3-4

This means, irrigate the wine, and MINE the cattle instead.
When we only want 3 food, then we can move a citizen from the irrigated wine to a mined BG. (we'll be still using the cattle).