• Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .

Global Warming is Stuck in the Ice

If you patch together enough weather over time you get climate. That is unless the weather is cold and then global warming becomes climate change which apparently is caused by the same thing that causes global warming but its just cold instead. T h a t ' s why Michael "Hockey Stick" Mann should be frozen in ice.

Now that this has been explained I think we can close this thread but leave it open. :)
 
I'm sure you've heard about a group of scientists stuck in ice down in Antarctica, apparently this has become a source of amusement for people skeptical of global warming predictions. And I gotta admit, it is :lol:

But Michael "Hockey Stick" Mann added to the hilarity tonight on MSNBC Chris Hayes Show. He chastised the critics for not understanding Antarctica and its surrounding waters are really cold and followed that up by explaining how a ship could get stuck in ice... during summer. Warmer sea and air temperatures can produce more ice around Antarctica.

:confused:
Do you have an actual quote? :)
 
Hmm, well from personal perspective, being in close contact with farmers who rent my land, I can pretty much assure you bumper crops in grains in this age have more to do with science and hybrids than weather. Sure, fields can be ruined by drought and temperature, but we make up for that pretty easily with mandated maintenance and proper use of chemicals.

Yes and no? I mostly know corn and soybeans, but I think they extrapolate accurrately, to some degree, across the industry. Hybridization. Accuracy. Irrigation.

Hybridized corn is bogglingly robust. Take the corn we planted in the 1950s. Then make it grow taller, faster, with greater stalk strength*, with better root strength, with the capacity to put on more kernels per plant, and the ability to put on some kernels when stressed instead of none. You wind up with plants that will yield more when everything is good, and plants that will resist without total loss a dry year, plants that are still standing after a moderate windstorm. Which is why farmers, particularly ones 60 years old plus are so cynical when people take potshots a seed companies because hybridized corn doesn't plant well year after year like legacy seeds did. It hasn't since the 1950s. It's one of the costs of selective corn breeding. And legacy corn, to put it mildly, sucks. Complaining about kill genes and hybrid vigor is mostly a sign of ignorance of the alternatives.

Herbicide and insecticide controls, be they chemical or GMO, are far more accurate than they used to be. Fertilization is as well. GPS mapping and tracking by computer allows you to identify(probably not every year, that's too expensive) what parts of the soil are low on what minerals. You can then add how much fertilizer you need, where you need it. Remember that adding too much can sometimes be worse than adding too little. Being able to spot map your field is a huge benefit over bigger blanket guesses. I mean, there's still a hell of a lot of guess work and generalization in a given year, but this takes some of that out. The herbicide and insecticide controls reduce effectively the crop's primary competition from weeds as well as its prime predators. Effective control of the European Corn Borer, for example, then plays not only into yields being higher due to lack of damage, but wind resistance as well. Since a plant that has been heavily damaged by that insect is going to either fall over on its own, or fall over in a stiff breeze.

All this stuff does raise average yields, year over year. But as much as we can control insects and weeds that can turn a stressed plant into a non-productive or dead one, as much as we can custom tailor individual strains of crops to the average growing season of a quarter state, as much as we can get closer to providing each plant an optimal soil for growth - you still need the weather. If your spring is muddy and you can't get in the fields in time, yields suffer. If your fall is muddy and you can't get your corn harvested, ears drop. If it's scorchingly hot the week your pollen is tossing, that sucks. Drought resistant is only drought resistant. Not immune. If you don't get any moisture, the crop isn't growing.

Here's really the kick. The plants are strong. They can probably take one or two things going wrong and still come out decent. They can be a little short on rain and have a little insect damage. They can be a little short on nitrogen and the year can be a little windy. It's when you start compounding these stresses on the plants that they fail. Which is why there is so much effort spent on consistency.

While the high-tech stuff sounds the coolest, and gets much of the attention, it's debatable if it is the primary mover of this consistency. Irrigation very well might be. We've taken millions of acres of fruits, grains, you name it, which are marginal acres because yearly rainfall is dangerously inconsistent - and we've irrigated them. We can splice genes, but pumping water out of the ground is still perhaps more effective for the raw numbers, year after year after year. And it's going to be a big problem one of these years. Irrigation is going to have to be tempered in some regards, and we're going to need to make tough decisions around if productive soil or massively unsustainable cities developed in deserts are priorities.

*harvested corn stubble now actually has the nasty habit of destroying combine tires. Those now cost more than they did a couple years ago because they have to be aged before they're sold and mounted. Fresh, unaged, combine tires get destroyed disturbingly quickly.
 
Hybridized corn is bogglingly robust. Take the corn we planted in the 1950s. Then make it grow taller, faster, with greater stalk strength*, with better root strength, with the capacity to put on more kernels per plant, and the ability to put on some kernels when stressed instead of none. You wind up with plants that will yield more when everything is good, and plants that will resist without total loss a dry year, plants that are still standing after a moderate windstorm. Which is why farmers, particularly ones 60 years old plus are so cynical when people take potshots a seed companies because hybridized corn doesn't plant well year after year like legacy seeds did. It hasn't since the 1950s. It's one of the costs of selective corn breeding. And legacy corn, to put it mildly, sucks. Complaining about kill genes and hybrid vigor is mostly a sign of ignorance of the alternatives.

Exactly. The reason we reap 5 times more "food" per acre than we did 60 years ago is not because the weather has been 5 times, or even twice, as "good".

At this point, it would take a disaster of literally biblical proportion to force the overall food production in the USA to fail, and it's only getting better.
 
Exactly. The reason we reap 5 times more "food" per acre than we did 60 years ago is not because the weather has been 5 times, or even twice, as "good".

At this point, it would take a disaster of literally biblical proportion to force the overall food production in the USA to fail, and it's only getting better.

The weather is the same. But it certainly would not take a disaster of biblical proportions to cause severe pain. Drought is still drought. Not all acres are irrigated, touches of drought reduce yields, severe droughts(not biblical) cause non-irrigated crops to fail. Part of the reason there is so much flex in the system is that we deliberately over produce. So when there is a bump in overall yield, like two years ago, prices go up but there remains enough grain in the system that people disconnected from agriculture hardly notice. Particularly if they are rich Americans who spend very small portions of their budgets on food. Now if two years ago had come and gone without intentional overproduction putting buffer into the system? Significantly more disruptive, even for the drought that was(a blip for most places. Droughts compound year after year, so the first isn't nearly as bad as the second. And all weather is local). But we still have people who whine about food into fuel, or any of the other sinks we build in. Which I suppose is probably going to die off eventually. I would wager big petroleum is going to win that scuffle for its profits.
 
Thanks for the input, Farm Boy. one of the reasons I was curious was because I remember a (learning channel or discovery IIRC) show a couple of years ago about how the drought was affecting a lot of farmers in, IIRC, Nebraska and Kansas. It was a long term drought and they were basically frakked.
 
I'd call a multi-year drought across the entire expanse of agricultural productivity "edging toward biblical".
 
Thanks for the input, Farm Boy. one of the reasons I was curious was because I remember a (learning channel or discovery IIRC) show a couple of years ago about how the drought was affecting a lot of farmers in, IIRC, Nebraska and Kansas. It was a long term drought and they were basically frakked.

You could take Nebraska and Kansas out of the equation virtually completely for a period, as the Dust Bowl, and we'd still have more than enough food.

edit: but that's just it. With today's mandates and practices, short of climate-induced restratification, it's very unlikely we'd even have another Dust Bowl. Like, if a desert suddenly popped up in the middle of Missouri, which can and might happen eventually, but by then, Iowa and Illinois will pick up the slack.
 
I'd call a multi-year drought across the entire expanse of agricultural productivity "edging toward biblical".

Doesn't take a disruption of anywhere near the entire expanse of agricultural productivity to start becoming what is in essence a national security issue. We could probably handle a couple year collapse of some crops. It'd suck, but we're relatively wealthy as a nation. We could pay to import if we had to. Those with money eat well simultaneously to the poor starving, when it comes to that. Though, when things get tight, nations do start clamping their food exports.

Thanks for the input, Farm Boy. one of the reasons I was curious was because I remember a (learning channel or discovery IIRC) show a couple of years ago about how the drought was affecting a lot of farmers in, IIRC, Nebraska and Kansas. It was a long term drought and they were basically frakked.

Large portions of Nebraska and Kansas should never have been pressed into service for the intensive growing of grains in the first place. The climate isn't right for it. Too dry. Not every year, maybe even some decades will be fine on rain. But it doesn't always come. It's unstable. Much of that production has been enabled almost entirely through the use of irrigation. And that practice is depleting the aquifer it draws upon. It seems like we're trying pretty hard to avoid having learned any long-term lesson from this one.

but by then, Iowa and Illinois will pick up the slack.

I think you might be overestimating how much we could actually increase production. We're producing unsustainably relative to our water infrastructure now. We could open new ground to tilling, but not much. We already till most of it that's fit for the plough. Urban sprawl in Northern Illinois(as one example) paves over, rather the brings into service, ground that's naturally fertile with adequate rainfall. We already produce near technological capacity. If you want a significant increase in food output to make up for the loss of production from the areas that are too dry to be producing what they are now, you are going to have to lean even more heavily on the hope of technological development, and possibly even hydroponics. And hydroponics come at massive expense.
 
While the high-tech stuff sounds the coolest, and gets much of the attention, it's debatable if it is the primary mover of this consistency. Irrigation very well might be. We've taken millions of acres of fruits, grains, you name it, which are marginal acres because yearly rainfall is dangerously inconsistent - and we've irrigated them. We can splice genes, but pumping water out of the ground is still perhaps more effective for the raw numbers, year after year after year. And it's going to be a big problem one of these years. Irrigation is going to have to be tempered in some regards, and we're going to need to make tough decisions around if productive soil or massively unsustainable cities developed in deserts are priorities.
Irrigation is a huge problem in Florida. It is causing more and more sinkholes as the water table is being lowered, and even resulted in Tampa building a desalination plant. It is even worse during frost periods because the citrus producers use an exorbitant amount of water to keep the fruit trees from freezing.
 
Yea, it's not just a Kansas thing. It's a Florida thing, it's a California thing. We desperately need innovation and decision making regarding how we use water for agricultural, industrial, and residential purposes.
 
Irrigation is a huge problem in Florida. It is causing more and more sinkholes as the water table is being lowered, and even resulted in Tampa building a desalination plant. It is even worse during frost periods because the citrus producers use an exorbitant amount of water to keep the fruit trees from freezing.

If i did not have reason to trust otherwise, i would be really tempted to view the above sentence as allegorical...

Of course in that case your CFC account would have been hacked. :D
 

I'm sure you've heard about a group of scientists stuck in ice down in Antarctica, apparently this has become a source of amusement for people skeptical of global warming predictions. And I gotta admit, it is :lol:

But Michael "Hockey Stick" Mann added to the hilarity tonight on MSNBC Chris Hayes Show. He chastised the critics for not understanding Antarctica and its surrounding waters are really cold and followed that up by explaining how a ship could get stuck in ice... during summer. Warmer sea and air temperatures can produce more ice around Antarctica.

:confused:
Ok, I've seen both clips.

The explanation is warmer sea and air temperatures increase the moisture level in the air just over the sea which would be able to produce more ice. He also claims the models predict this. Now this sounds plausible, without saying he's right. I have no idea. Bit of a bummer the interviewer was more interested in a sensationalist line of questioning than actually acquiring insight. I was also tempted to abandon the video at his first question due to the phrasing.

What I don't understand is why this is hilarious. Counter-intuitive, sure. But lots of stuff that happens is.
 
If i did not have reason to trust otherwise, i would be really tempted to view the above sentence as allegorical...

Of course in that case your CFC account would have been hacked. :D
One thing is for certain. You will continue to find even the lamest excuse to discuss me instead of the topic.

But I'll bite. What is the supposed allegory behind that paragraph?
 
Something about our precious bodily fluids?
 
Top Bottom