Global warming strikes again...

It depends how much leaks, and what the critical timescale is. If the tipping point is only 20 years away, then we need to leak less than 2% for it to be better than oil? This gives an estimate of 2 - 6% lost in just fracking, and then you have to add the transmission losses.

Let's face it, the tipping point has already passed. Anthroprogenically it will take 50 years for net zero emissions. 30 years too late.

Only through the power of the almighty whales, churning the ocean currents and tilling the krill can CO2 be properly sequestered back into the depths. Shoveling and upwelling of olivine from the mantle (which is found on the ocean floor via oceanic ridges) to the surface coastal shores whereby exposure to the air and pounding of the waves can CO2 be further sequestered. Again all done through whales.

La Niña years help too.
 
It depends how much leaks, and what the critical timescale is. If the tipping point is only 20 years away, then we need to leak less than 2% for it to be better than oil? This gives an estimate of 2 - 6% lost in just fracking, and then you have to add the transmission losses.

That's a good question, and it definitely makes the calculation harder. We also need to factor in what is being replaced with natural gas.

Replacing a new coal plant with a new natural gas plant is a very different calculation than tearing down an existing oil plant to replace it with natural gas.
 
I like how Labour has pledged to create a national renewable energy company (in the UK) if they get into power. A great idea imo.
 
Methane ‘Super-Emitters’ Mapped by NASA’s New Earth Space Mission

NASA’s Earth Surface Mineral Dust Source Investigation (EMIT) mission is mapping the prevalence of key minerals in the planet’s dust-producing deserts – information that will advance our understanding of airborne dust’s effects on climate. But EMIT has demonstrated another crucial capability: detecting the presence of methane, a potent greenhouse gas.​
In the data EMIT has collected since being installed on the International Space Station in July, the science team has identified more than 50 “super-emitters” in Central Asia, the Middle East, and the Southwestern United States. Super-emitters are facilities, equipment, and other infrastructure, typically in the fossil-fuel, waste, or agriculture sectors, that emit methane at high rates.​
“Reining in methane emissions is key to limiting global warming. This exciting new development will not only help researchers better pinpoint where methane leaks are coming from, but also provide insight on how they can be addressed – quickly,” said NASA Administrator Bill Nelson.​
For example, the instrument detected a plume about 2 miles (3.3 kilometers) long southeast of Carlsbad, New Mexico, in the Permian Basin. One of the largest oilfields in the world, the Permian spans parts of southeastern New Mexico and western Texas.​
In Turkmenistan, EMIT identified 12 plumes from oil and gas infrastructure east of the Caspian Sea port city of Hazar. Blowing to the west, some plumes stretch more than 20 miles (32 kilometers).​
The team also identified a methane plume south of Tehran, Iran, at least 3 miles (4.8 kilometers) long, from a major waste-processing complex. Methane is a byproduct of decomposition, and landfills can be a major source.​
Scientists estimate flow rates of about 40,300 pounds (18,300 kilograms) per hour at the Permian site, 111,000 pounds (50,400 kilograms) per hour in total for the Turkmenistan sources, and 18,700 pounds (8,500 kilograms) per hour at the Iran site.​
The Turkmenistan sources together have a similar flow rate to the 2015 Aliso Canyon gas leak, which exceeded 110,000 pounds (50,000 kilograms) per hour at times. The Los Angeles-area disaster was among the largest methane releases in U.S. history.​

2-pia25592_emit_methane_turkmenistan_figure_a.jpg

East of Hazar, Turkmenistan, a port city on the Caspian Sea, 12 plumes of methane stream westward. The plumes were detected by NASA’s Earth Surface Mineral Dust Source Investigation mission and some of them stretch for more than 20 miles (32 kilometers).
Spoiler New Mexico and Iran :
1-pia25592_emit_methane_permian.jpg

This image shows a methane plume 2 miles (3 kilometers) long that NASA’s Earth Surface Mineral Dust Source Investigation mission detected southeast of Carlsbad, New Mexico.
3-pia25592_emit_methane_iran_figure_b.jpg

A methane plume at least 3 miles (4.8 kilometers) long billows into the atmosphere south of Tehran, Iran. The plume, detected by NASA’s Earth Surface Mineral Dust Source Investigation mission, comes from a major landfill, where methane is a byproduct of decomposition.
 
I just finished reading Apocalypse Never by Michael Shellenberger. Reviews the history and arguments for climate alarmism and how financial interests push faulty science on both sides of the argument. Much like other works I've read on the topic the book has a lot of focus on modern climate activists including the media, celebrities, and even world leaders who earn the ire of the author and scientific community for their lies and publicity stunts. The book was encouraging in that the data isn't nearly as bad or as bleak as most people indoctrinated into climate alarmism make it out to seem and reiterates the points long established in the literature on steps that can be taken towards building sustainable futures and modernizing developing countries towards reducing carbon emissions. 8/10 Stars.
 
I just finished reading Apocalypse Never by Michael Shellenberger. Reviews the history and arguments for climate alarmism and how financial interests push faulty science on both sides of the argument. Much like other works I've read on the topic the book has a lot of focus on modern climate activists including the media, celebrities, and even world leaders who earn the ire of the author and scientific community for their lies and publicity stunts. The book was encouraging in that the data isn't nearly as bad or as bleak as most people indoctrinated into climate alarmism make it out to seem and reiterates the points long established in the literature on steps that can be taken towards building sustainable futures and modernizing developing countries towards reducing carbon emissions. 8/10 Stars.
Sounds like propaganda to me. Honestly, the phrase "climate alarmism" is a red flag that should have given it away
 
Sounds like propaganda to me. Honestly, the phrase "climate alarmism" is a red flag that should have given it away
Oh really, which book on the topic did you read or write? Which studies did you conduct? How many decades of experience do you have in the field? Which experts did you consult? What political and activist movements did you experience from the inside that gave you insight into the topic?

If someone challenging your dogma is a red flag maybe that's because they don't follow your religion.
 
It's very easy these days to find scientists espousing unusual viewpoints, especially if it plays into their particular biases. As Machiavelli said, a smart man chooses wise advisers, but it takes a wise man to choose good advisers.
 
It's very easy these days to find scientists espousing unusual viewpoints, especially if it plays into their particular biases. As Machiavelli said, a smart man chooses wise advisers, but it takes a wise man to choose good advisers.
Even easier to find people expressing uninformed viewpoints, especially if they are unwilling to challenge their particular biases. evidence and arguments presented should be evaluated. The UNEN and IPCC are good places to start. Maybe actually reading a book rather than whining about people who did.
 
The Internet has democratised stupidity as much as it did intelligence. But you appear to be arguing with the wrong person.
 
Thank goodness science isn't based on the popular vote. Not every response is an argument.
 
Oh really, which book on the topic did you read or write? Which studies did you conduct? How many decades of experience do you have in the field? Which experts did you consult? What political and activist movements did you experience from the inside that gave you insight into the topic?

If someone challenging your dogma is a red flag maybe that's because they don't follow your religion.

Dude, the vast majority of experts in this field would cringe if they heard you use the phrase that book did. Like 99.9% of them.

This is not what peer review looks like.
 
Sounds like propaganda to me. Honestly, the phrase "climate alarmism" is a red flag that should have given it away

There are definitely climate alarmists. Depending on where you sit politically, they can be really significant. If you're on the denier side, then they're evidence that the AGW advocates are idiots. If you're on the skeptics side, they'll bias which concerns are worth considering. If you're an AGW advocate, then it's either bemusement or a concern that they're dilution the discussion. If you're an activist, they're a source of bodies for actual effort.

We have more time than we think, but also a greater distance to go than we think. The harms of delay won't be offset by the people who caused them, but eventually we'll be in territory where they cannot be.

@DaggerDigwillow , the book I'd really really recommend reading next on the topic is "The Burning Question". Ignore the 'Al Gore recommends' thing. I started my journey on this topic (mid-90s) while biased towards the Center-Right (before they shifted), and it really tightly captured many useful concepts. It might not resonate with people whose solution is "poor people can just move", but it will at least create more opportunity for people to be on the same page.
 
Oh really, which book on the topic did you read or write?
This is a good review from Yale:

Voices of reason and clear analyses in the contentious debates about how to tackle our global problems are welcome. Unfortunately, the book is deeply and fatally flawed. At the simplest level, it is a polemic based on a strawman argument: To Shellenberger, scientists, “educated elite,” “activist journalists,” and high-profile environmental activists believe incorrectly that the end of the world is coming and yet refuse to support the only solutions that he thinks will work – nuclear energy and uninhibited economic growth.​
But even if the author properly understood the complexity and nature of global challenges, which he does not, and got the science right, which he did not, a fatal flaw in his argument is the traditional Cornucopian oversimplification of his solutions – reliance on economic growth and silver-bullet technology. As the great American journalist and humorist H. L. Mencken said, “there is always a well-known solution to every human problem – neat, plausible, and wrong.” Mencken also warned against those who know precisely what is right and what is wrong, a warning especially worth hearing in the highly complex and uncertain worlds of global climate, pandemics, and environmental change.​
But the problems in the book go much deeper. The author wanders from topic to topic, jumping from personal anecdote to polemical arguments to data and numbers carefully chosen to support his views, making it difficult for the reader to follow his threads. The most serious flaw, however, is that he assumes a position and seeks data and facts to fit that position rather than, as science demands, using data and facts to develop, test, and refine a theory. As a result, the book suffers from logical fallacies, arguments based on emotion and ideology, the setting up and knocking down of strawman arguments, and the selective cherry-picking and misuse of facts, all interspersed with simple mistakes and misrepresentations of science. Distressingly, this is also an angry book, riddled with ugly ad hominem attacks on scientists, environmental advocates, and the media.​
 
Dude, the vast majority of experts in this field would cringe if they heard you use the phrase that book did. Like 99.9% of them.

This is not what peer review looks like.
Citation needed.
 
So, which of the many, many links for "what is peer review" do you want?
 
This is a good review from Yale:

Voices of reason and clear analyses in the contentious debates about how to tackle our global problems are welcome. Unfortunately, the book is deeply and fatally flawed. At the simplest level, it is a polemic based on a strawman argument: To Shellenberger, scientists, “educated elite,” “activist journalists,” and high-profile environmental activists believe incorrectly that the end of the world is coming and yet refuse to support the only solutions that he thinks will work – nuclear energy and uninhibited economic growth.​
But even if the author properly understood the complexity and nature of global challenges, which he does not, and got the science right, which he did not, a fatal flaw in his argument is the traditional Cornucopian oversimplification of his solutions – reliance on economic growth and silver-bullet technology. As the great American journalist and humorist H. L. Mencken said, “there is always a well-known solution to every human problem – neat, plausible, and wrong.” Mencken also warned against those who know precisely what is right and what is wrong, a warning especially worth hearing in the highly complex and uncertain worlds of global climate, pandemics, and environmental change.​
But the problems in the book go much deeper. The author wanders from topic to topic, jumping from personal anecdote to polemical arguments to data and numbers carefully chosen to support his views, making it difficult for the reader to follow his threads. The most serious flaw, however, is that he assumes a position and seeks data and facts to fit that position rather than, as science demands, using data and facts to develop, test, and refine a theory. As a result, the book suffers from logical fallacies, arguments based on emotion and ideology, the setting up and knocking down of strawman arguments, and the selective cherry-picking and misuse of facts, all interspersed with simple mistakes and misrepresentations of science. Distressingly, this is also an angry book, riddled with ugly ad hominem attacks on scientists, environmental advocates, and the media.​
This is a welcomed response but while reading through this review I found myself recognizing one bad-faith argument after another mounting on top of factually erroneous claims.
Here is a good response from Micheal Shellenberger to the review you posted.
In Apocalypse Never I explicitly acknowledge climate change’s potentially negative impacts on food production and point out that the UN Food and Agriculture Organization and every other major scientific body conclude that fertilizer, irrigation, flood control, roads, tractors, and other technologies needed to increase yields massively outweigh rising temperatures around the world, including in poor and developing nations in the tropics.​
Gleick, for his part, offers no reason to expect declining food production, much less famine. Food surpluses have been rising gradually for millennia and especially in the 220 years since Thomas Malthus wrote his famous tract, claiming that humans were doomed to periodic starvation.​
Gleick falsely accuses me of cherry-picking a quote from a 2019 New York Times story on Amazon fires. “If you look at the actual article he cites,” writes Gleick, “the journalist makes clear the “influence” of climate change just two sentences later.” But, as noted above, I have never suggested there wasn’t an influence, just that it is outweighed by other factors.​
Gleick confuses the reader about the relationship between disasters and extreme weather events. A hurricane whose wind speed has been made more intense by climate change but doesn’t hurt anyone or destroy property, is not a disaster, according to IPCC, dictionaries, and common sense. And yet Gleick conflates the two concepts, leading readers to believe that we have become more vulnerable. “In fact,” he writes, “a large and growing body of literature already shows strong links between climate change and extreme events…” But I never deny those links and indeed address them specifically in Apocalypse Never.​

Gleick defends Holdren and the Ehrlichs as part of his broader defense of Malthusianism. Gleick claims they did not claim fossil fuels were scarce in the 1970s, and points to a book published in 2003 where Holdren said, “What environmentalists mainly say on this topic is not that we are running out of energy, but that we are running out of environment…”​
But I make this exact point in Apocalypse Never. I show how Malthusians have used climate change to shift from claiming fossil fuels were scarce to claiming that the environment was scarce. “Where just a few years earlier, Malthusians had demanded limits on energy consumption by claiming fossil fuels were scarce; now they demanded limits by claiming the atmosphere was scarce.”​
In his review of Apocalypse Never, Gleick does something similar. He suggests that I am wrong that hydro-electric dams, flood control systems, and nuclear power plants will allow human societies to both mitigate and adapt to climate change. I believe Gleick is wrong to do so, in both senses of the term “wrong.” I’m sad about that, not angry.​


A few additional problems I had with Peter's review that Michael doesn't touch on. While the surface of Peter's presentation appears valid digging even slightly into his references or claims uncovered what could charitably be called shoddy references. On Cornucopian he literally links to opinion pieces written by anonymous sources. Such as this article in The Atlantic or a Christian Monitor Freelance Journalist article by Kurt Cobb on his personal blog, and the strongest citation he makes is to the Bankruptcy of Economics which, and I'm not even joking here, was written by an Australian businessman, Research Fellow in the Department of Geography, and a Lecturer in Philosophy at Flinders University. That's how the writers themselves present their credentials. Although, we are not done yet scrapping the bottom of the barrel as when looking at the Altmetric of the text its citation value is found to be 6 blogs. One of which is The review you posted. Printed in 1999 it was never reprinted and little wonder why. The one and only academic citation that references this work is Kumudini Abeysuriya, Cynthia Mitchell, Juliet Willetts paper on Economic perspective for water sustainability.

As an aside, wouldn't you know it guess whose name pops up in the other citations on that paper? Give yourself three guesses and the first two don't count.
 
"99.9% of scientists would cringe if they heard you use the phrase"

Would love to see a peer-reviewed paper publishing that claim. Take your time, I'll wait.
It is doubling down on statements like these that make it hard to take those arguing them seriously.

There are definitely climate alarmists. Depending on where you sit politically, they can be really significant. If you're on the denier side, then they're evidence that the AGW advocates are idiots. If you're on the skeptics side, they'll bias which concerns are worth considering. If you're an AGW advocate, then it's either bemusement or a concern that they're dilution the discussion. If you're an activist, they're a source of bodies for actual effort.

We have more time than we think, but also a greater distance to go than we think. The harms of delay won't be offset by the people who caused them, but eventually we'll be in territory where they cannot be.

@DaggerDigwillow , the book I'd really really recommend reading next on the topic is "The Burning Question". Ignore the 'Al Gore recommends' thing. I started my journey on this topic (mid-90s) while biased towards the Center-Right (before they shifted), and it really tightly captured many useful concepts. It might not resonate with people whose solution is "poor people can just move", but it will at least create more opportunity for people to be on the same page.
Thank you for the recommendation. I will certainly give it a read. I'd also point out that my agreement is to the solution on raising people out of poverty which seems to me a lot more humane and realistic than the foregone conclusion by climate alarmists that they will remain poor and rooted in their location causing them to drown.
 
Thank you for the recommendation. I will certainly give it a read. I'd also point out that my agreement is to the solution on raising people out of poverty which seems to me a lot more humane and realistic than the foregone conclusion by climate alarmists that they will remain poor and rooted in their location causing them to drown.
Its easy to find a humane and realistic solution when you permit yourself the use of technology on the level of magic. Best practice would be to have this technology in hand before chiding others for not using it.
 
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