GMOs causing autism?! We report, you decide!

Yes, I'm sure those poor Finnish cows are just brutalized compared to the luxurious lives of Swedish cows.

Really, if you're going to modify diet based on animal treatment, you shouldn't be eating meat.
I haven't seen much of Finnish cows here, it's mostly the Danish pigs who are in trouble. ..and Swedish farmers who have to compete under harsher terms.

I have changed my diet a fair bit during recent year, but I'm not a veggie yet.


It's tied to the OP. If the regulations are loosened up for GMOs, antibiotics or whatever - I'm sure these farmers who use it can make an easier living under a foreseeable future, but it may force everyone else too in that direction and I'm worried about the long term consequences - politically and environmentally. Slow is good.
 
It's a damned naturally occurring bacteria. And this is how smart organic farming is. In order to spite large agribusiness, you can't buy an unnatural voodoo GMO seed that has the gene from that bacteria mixed in to control a narrow swath of pests. But, since BT(Bacillus thuringiensis) is natural itself, if you are growing organic you then spray that crap everywhere over the same crop to control the same pests. Yep, that's another field pass(or more). Burning diesel for mother earth since the plant can't be allowed to do the horsepower for you, and the yokels just snap it up with chants of "MONSANTO MONSANTO MONSANTO." This one simply must be saferer and betterer! And tons of "organic" processes work like this. It's revolting El!

Last time I checked, Bacillus thurigiensis wasn't similar to plant pollen in terms of gene transfer, and dozens of other parameters.

I'm not wildly concerned about gene transfer.

The risk is that the pollen contains a toxic protein, and the pollen drifts into ecosystems where the larvae of other insects will eat it and then suffer for it. It's not a giant, giant, giant risk, it just means that the swath of ecosystems affected is larger than the monoculture field itself. A monoculture field is a dedicated effort to causing local extinctions, and then the pollen will cause a biodiversity loss larger than just the field. Not dissimilar from other air-transportable pesticides or herbicides, honestly. The advantage of bt is that it's not easy to see how it could be concentrated up a food chain like DDT would be.

The issue will commonly be biodiversity suppression, which is why I still ask people to let their backyards grow more 'wild' than they do. Biodiversity suppression makes extinctions easier.

I don't really mind "GMOs", to me it's such a broad term that it's basically meaningless. There are a gazillion ways of making a GMO. Crops containing inherent pesticides is one thing, but it's a real uphill battle convincing me that other biochemical tweaks will make any type of difference to the safety of a food crop.
 
I don't think it is irrational to assume that directly designed genes carry greater risk.

It's irrational to assume anything like this until you do the studies to show that it is true.

As such I don't think it's possible to say anything at all about designed genes en masse. You are going to have to look at the risks of each one individually, IMO.

El_Machinae said:
I don't really mind "GMOs", to me it's such a broad term that it's basically meaningless. There are a gazillion ways of making a GMO.

That's where anti-GMO people lose me. I hate Monsanto as much as the next guy and think that there are a lot of issues here worth discussing.. and that there are probably a lot of things going on that need to change..

But no anti-GMO person has ever been able to explain to me how it's possible that such a broadly described technology.. (it's not even a technology, it's a group of technologies.. including ones we haven't even invented yet.. it's all of biotech and then some) to be inherently good for you or bad for you in some way.

The only way to look at these things is on a case by case basis.. or even just the technology used, if you want to. But every single anti-GMO person I've talked to balks at that and just says.. "Well.. they're just all bad".

"Every single genetic modification of an organism, past or future, is bad for us?"

".. .. yes, gmo bad"

That doesn't make sense to me and it leads me to the conclusion that anti-GMO people are invested in this emotionally and that this is the main thing that drives their arguments, not logic. And without logic and rational arguments, they just won't have my support. In fact, I'm opposed to them, because I think that they make things even more dangerous. Instead they should be taking all that energy and investing it in the many social issues that are on the line here.. but instead all they do is put up an "ANTI-GMO" banner and go "rabble rabble". It's not going to accomplish anything and the best it's going to do is make things worse for everyone involved, except maybe Monsanto.
 
All right, then. Those farmer deaths were not in vain.

GAR list it is.



Word.

Ok, I sat on this a while to think about it instead of firing right back off. What we have is you coming after the field of GMO technology, currently on the market in the form of two gene modifications(Roundup herbicide resistance and Bt insect resistance) in three different crops, corn, soybeans, and cotton. In support of this opposition you've cited the John Daily show and a self-styled philosopher, environmental activist, and eco feminist who manages to condense the very human costs of globalized capitalist markets, predatory debt lending, domestic protectionism of vital national industry, and patent abuse into the tagline of "No GMO seeds, no debt, no suicides." while managing to sound shocked that 75 percent of agricultural debt is due to purchasing inputs and brushing off the terrifically horrible amount of farming suicides that occur in India in areas that don't even grow the GMO cotton she's coming after. I would be tempted to write her off as ignorant, but especially since El Mac finds value in her I find it terrifically unlikely that she actually is. Rather, I think she's probably simply scoring popularity points by beating up on a popular folk boogeyman. I'm questioning the credibility of the reasoning you are basing your objections to this field of technology on even more than when we started.
 
Actually, the issue is not GMO or not. I don't freaking care. Our entire food supply has been compromised. So what? Effed up environmental factors and effed up working conditions kill more than GMOs. Hell, more deaths can be attributed to climate change than GMOs.

The issue is who is behind this drive.

Monsanto is also irrelevant, as they are simply representative of international finance capital.

If the core issue at hand is saving money on fuel and being able to have predictable crop yields while we face an increasing demand for water, why do we think the a-holes who cause gas prices to go up and cause food prices to go up have our best interests at heart?

Do you know that speculation on a loosely (if at all) regulated commodities market is the single largest reason for rising food prices. In 2003, commodities speculation accounted for only $13 billion annually. In 2013, it was $318 billion.

Newsflash: farmers don't benefit when traders pocket the cash.

Again, why would a farmer side with these vultures?

Here's how Cuba deals with feeding its people


Link to video.
 
Again, why would a farmer side with these vultures?

Have you been reading what I've been typing? I've been siding with a technological improvement that allows us to reduce herbicide use, reduce insecticide use, reduce fuel use, reduce field passes compaction and tillage. I hope to high heaven that technological field, coupled with sane patent regulations, produces more of the same. Where have you seen anything in support of unregulated commodity speculation or unfettered corporate globalization? Seriously RT, don't go this GWB "you're either with us or against us" and then pick a line in the sand so arbitrary, unrelated, and foolish as genetically modified plant crops. That's what that cynical philosopher you cited is doing. And you are still including as implicit in your post that GMOs(like the actual fact that the plant is a GMO) is "killing people."
 
I would be tempted to write her off as ignorant, but especially since El Mac finds value in her I find it terrifically unlikely that she actually is.

Keep in mind, I liked listening to Christopher Hitchens and Noam Chomsky as well as William Lane Craig and Dinesh D'Souza. Even when I disagree with them, I found them clear. And, I find the majority of their arguments are honestly made, which allows me insight both into their perspective and why I disagree with them.

I liked hearing her talks. Gave me something to think about. Some ideas to be alert towards regarding noticing new facts.
 
The thing about GMOs is that they can be an amazing technology that will feed the world and make it healthier and less polluted.

But America's lobby system and Monsanto are turning the public against all biotech related technologies..

Thanks a lot America..
 
Have you been reading what I've been typing? I've been siding with a technological improvement that allows us to reduce herbicide use, reduce insecticide use, reduce fuel use, reduce field passes compaction and tillage. I hope to high heaven that technological field, coupled with sane patent regulations, produces more of the same. Where have you seen anything in support of unregulated commodity speculation or unfettered corporate globalization? Seriously RT, don't go this GWB "you're either with us or against us" and then pick a line in the sand so arbitrary, unrelated, and foolish as genetically modified plant crops. That's what that cynical philosopher you cited is doing. And you are still including as implicit in your post that GMOs(like the actual fact that the plant is a GMO) is "killing people."
Yes, and I am reading that through your position, you are trying to cleave the issue of corporate profit at everybody else's expense from the question of the science of GMOs. What you JUST wrote rejects the objective reality, your baseless attack on DOCTOR Vandana Shiva aside, since you did not read HER position (which broadens the issue beyond "GMOs.") When, in fact, it IS a question of SIDES.

I am with you on the objective science of GMOs, but we are at polar opposites when it come to whether or not the vultures who run this economy have our best interests at heart when they devise genetic ways of overcoming rising fuel and seed costs for which THEY are responsible.

And out government, the one we are taxed by, gives them the advantage and not us.
 
Oh I read her position, with the vague inferences of causation and the misleading presentation of debt structure in an industry that costs up front and then pays off in chunks. Heck, if you've ever read what I say about countries you'll know I'm a huge supporter of governments like India putting in robust protections of their agricultural sector from Western imports(hiya, that's me) and global corporations.

Yet I suppose it's probably too difficult to attack massive corporate lobbies or "free-market-capitalism without government interference" itself. So one summons the terrors of the night in the form of frankenfoods and attacks that instead. At least that way you can get an uneducated and energetic bandwagon. The future of this world is not in rolling back the science of food production. It's not even in keeping it where it is now. The reality of rising global populations, growing dietary requirements, and growing wealth inequity are going to require innovation in producing significant amounts of inexpensive food product off of limited land over the long haul of time. Strong seeds are an integral part of this. If Monsanto is one of the few players actually invested enough to make this happen, the for God's sake take your boundless energy and use it to advocate for patent and intellectual property justice and technological innovations at publicly funded agricultural study centers. University of Iowa, University of Illinois, etc etc etc! Lumping me in as "baselessly" attacking some published PHD for spouting crap when she's spouting crap does not make this some SIDES issue unless you're itching for a fight and you don't much care about the foundations you pick it on.
 
While I have no trouble with eating GMO myself...I fully support mandatory labeling. People are entitled to knowing what they're eating.

In the same vein, having two celiac siblings (diagnosed medically), I really want to see proper gluten labeling, especially for spices and other things that add flour as a filler.

The problem is that labeling can be misleading. I vaguely remember reading about some company, I think in Germany but it could be somewhere else, being fined for saying in it's bottled water products "Does not Contain Sugar!". Technically true, but implying that the competitors' bottled water has sugar, which is misleading.

GMOs are a different but related issue. By mandating GMO labeling the government is implying that there are additional risks associated with being GMO, or that it's inferior quality, and that's just not supported by any scientific evidence.

Quite the opposite, GMOs help reduce the need to use known toxic products. GMOs make food healthier, but unfortunately this notion has been lost in a wave of misinformation, put forward by:

-The "organic" (hahahahahaha) farmers lobby, specially European farmers;
-Anti-capitalists who see in attacking GMOs a way to attack corporate farming and thus capitalism broadly speaking;
-Idiots in general.
 
GMOs are a different but related issue. By mandating GMO labeling the government is implying that there are additional risks associated with being GMO, or that it's inferior quality, and that's just not supported by any scientific evidence.

I agree. Slapping a "GMO" sticker on a piece of fruit would be about the same as slapping a "Made using electricity" sticker on it.

Tells you about as much about how safe or not safe it is to eat.

I agree that our foods need better labels on them, but this whole GMO paranoia hoopla is not the way to go.
 
Oh I read her position, with the vague inferences of causation and the misleading presentation of debt structure in an industry that costs up front and then pays off in chunks. Heck, if you've ever read what I say about countries you'll know I'm a huge supporter of governments like India putting in robust protections of their agricultural sector from Western imports(hiya, that's me) and global corporations.

Yet I suppose it's probably too difficult to attack massive corporate lobbies or "free-market-capitalism without government interference" itself. So one summons the terrors of the night in the form of frankenfoods and attacks that instead. At least that way you can get an uneducated and energetic bandwagon. The future of this world is not in rolling back the science of food production. It's not even in keeping it where it is now. The reality of rising global populations, growing dietary requirements, and growing wealth inequity are going to require innovation in producing significant amounts of inexpensive food product off of limited land over the long haul of time. Strong seeds are an integral part of this. If Monsanto is one of the few players actually invested enough to make this happen, the for God's sake take your boundless energy and use it to advocate for patent and intellectual property justice and technological innovations at publicly funded agricultural study centers. University of Iowa, University of Illinois, etc etc etc! Lumping me in as "baselessly" attacking some published PHD for spouting crap when she's spouting crap does not make this some SIDES issue unless you're itching for a fight and you don't much care about the foundations you pick it on.
Not itching for a fight. I am doubting the effectiveness and motives of the same group of yahoos whose speculation drives up food prices, privatize water and drive up fuel costs, then sell us a seed that supposedly deals with that. The Cuban example shows what a nation can do without resorting to government coddling of speculation in food.

As for speculation;s relation to food costs:

Por ejemplo
 
So Wall Street speculation and privatization of water supplies, that latter of which has been a major domestic issue since the minute whites started settling in the West, are combated with the germane rallying cry of "label your freaking GMOs?" When irrigation is a problem for corn, soy, and cotton, but also and probably a greater problem for vegetables and fruits - none of which presently have a GMO product on the market?
 
So Wall Street speculation and privatization of water supplies, that latter of which has been a major domestic issue since the minute whites started settling in the West, are combated with the germane rallying cry of "label your freaking GMOs?" When irrigation is a problem for corn, soy, and cotton, but also and probably a greater problem for vegetables and fruits - none of which presently have a GMO product on the market?
No. I never said that this slogan combated that. That was in the rants thread. I have established my argument. It is also on my mind because my darling fiancee just wrote an impressive editorial about food speculation. Because it is not available on line, I cannot cite it... and right now I am planning a prison breakout from Oswald State, so I am too busy to link the data she cited.

Here, we are getting to the bottom of the fact that the false GMO issue -- i.e., that we should spend our hard-earned tax dollars (or other dollars) paying for GMOs when their need is suspect, given that the problems they are being developed to overcome are solvable by other means then patents. And patents, profits, and other extraction of surplus value at the expense of the rest of us, is why Monsanto, et al, are in business. NOT to feed the people. It is capitalism at its worst: create a need and fill it.

Watch The Power of Community, and find The Greening of Cuba. You do not need laboratories to solve hunger. You need to get the food to the people who are hungry. If you think the development of GMOs has that purpose, fine, but I do not and I have not seen one iota of evidence to suggest it does.

And, BTW, the only reason water and fuel became issues when "the whites" settled the west was because of those same economic interests.

I recommend reading about the Johnson County Cattle Wars, or see Heaven's Gate.
 
Sometimes when a nut has seized, torque and pulse haven't worked, alternating driving it back on and off hasn't worked, and heating it then repeating hasn't worked, you just leave it seized and scrap the whole part rather than trying to cut it off.
 
Hence, when a "way" of "doing business" has resisted all attempts to make it work for more than a select few, it must be scrapped.

I agree.

*drops mike*

Marx was right about rural living, btw.
 
So when ''reduce supply until distribution works itself out'' is the goal, make sure to advocate using the same old environmental toxins as a totally legit way to get there since we shouldn't have anyone investing in the technology of it and those two things are causal. That's seriously what I'm getting from you.

Oh praytell what did Marx say about this issue? I've already had more than one person now tell me how great the world would be if I farmed with animals while insinuating that the leaders of such auspicious change are too valuable to waste on such menial tasks. Again as if this actually has anything to do with pesticide use reductions. I'm sort of fascinated at this point.

Edit: ah, I see. Clever that. Sorry to disappoint you with my conservatism, parochialism, ethnocentrism, xenophobia, ignorance, distrust, risk aversion, and inability to cooperate with others in collective endeavors. If only I had somebody cocksure enough to show me the sins of my ways! :lol:

Rural idiocy is a phrase coined by Karl Marx to describe the attitude of 19th century peasants that included hidebound conservatism, parochialism, ethnocentrism, xenophobia, ignorance, distrust, economic risk aversion and the inability to cooperate with others in collective endeavors. He was convinced that such attitudes prevented peasants from acting as a revolutionary class.
 
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