Goodbye to the Euro ? and the EU ?

Depends on how much you pay in. If you think you can buy much with a few thousands USD, then probably not.

Also, is it an account with a German bank in Germany? If so, your deposits will almost certainly get converted into Euros in the event of a Euro crash (Zwangskonvertierung). Check the general terms and conditions of that account carefully.
No, its an overseas account.

Sorry Harvin, that's not quite possible.
If the Euro collapses (possible, though unlikely in my view) then your dollars will be worth a lot of euros, but not any more purchasing power than right now. It would be like owning a zillion Reichsmark in the Weimar Republic and being able to buy just an egg. Of course you would be better than other Germans who have their savings in Euros.

What you can do is buy call options on dollars (which might not be a bad idea, because if/when Israel attacks Iran everyone will 'flee into the dollar').

Edit: of course you're savings are worth more than an egg :-)

That's true... the purchasing power would be 0... but on the other part everyone would be wanting some american bucks right?
 
Considering the multiple drawbacks a Euro collapse has to a German resident, I certainly wouldn't pray for it.
 
If the Euro were about to collapse, wouldn't be seeing a massive decline in the value of the Euro?

Looking at it here it doesnt look like it.
 
According to a flowchart posted on Barry Ritholtz' blog that I can't find back it worked roughly like this:

Weak nations dropping out of the Euro: stronger Euro (i.e. less need for monetary easing)
Strong nations dropping out of the Euro: weaker Euro (i.e. more leeway for monetary easing)

(strong and weak relating mostly to employment levels and GDP output gap)

edit: that's what the flowchart said. I actually find myself questioning it. Depressed economies are a deflationary influence on the currency, i.e. prices want to fall to get rid of the capacity underutilization. When you just remove the depressed areas, there should be some counteractive inflationary effect... anyway this is probably just a complicated issue to which there are no shorthanded answers. I just wouldn't expect the only possible effect to be inflationary. Its not that simple.
 
Well, in the short run, currency prices are mostly influenced by expectations, as opposed to actual events. So if the risk of a Greek default rises, traders think the ECB will be more likely to print more money, which would cause inflation and a devaluation compared to the dollar in the long run. These expectations would therefore cause an immediate drop in the exchange rate.

For Harvin to make a profit, traders' expectations need to change. Then he should swap his dollars for euros, and expectations should change once more. Unfortunately, the bank exchange margin would be to high to allow for him to make any substantial profits.
 
It's the UK, Denmark, and Sweden who could have joined the Euro but have decided not to. For the time being, they've sidestepped an ugly mess.

In light of the fact that Finland is the only northern European country to use the Euro (Norway being outside the E.U.), no, a Northern European monetary union is not going to happen anytime soon.

I somewhat doubt the Euro will collapse, but Greece might leave the Eurozone, and the Eurozone might stop expanding. However, a breakup of the Eurozone isn't impossible; that is what happened to the Latin Monetary Union, after all.
 
I believe a separation of Greece is the most probable scenario. Nobody will want that, but in the end there's not much options for them. Italy will be saved, despite their corruption level, by a (somewhat) strengthening world economy.

We could save them if we helped (forced) stringent anti-corruption laws on them. But that would require some kind of European constitution, which is politically not feasable.

ps when people talk about a Northern eurozone, they don't mean Scandinavian countries per se, Netherland+Germany count as Northern Europe as well.
 
We could save them if we helped (forced) stringent anti-corruption laws on them. But that would require some kind of European constitution, which is politically not feasable.

And who would enforce these laws?

Greece's problem is that the society is broken as well as the economy. It's will require a profound re-making of the anti-state culture to make it function again. You can't have a nation made of anarchists.

Fortunately, Greece is about the worst there is in Europe in terms of dysfunctionality. Other countries can be fixed far more easily.
 
It's the UK, Denmark, and Sweden who could have joined the Euro but have decided not to. For the time being, they've sidestepped an ugly mess.
Just FYI, the Danish Crown is already pegged to the Euro, too. Not sure about Sweden.

In light of the fact that Finland is the only northern European country to use the Euro (Norway being outside the E.U.), no, a Northern European monetary union is not going to happen anytime soon.
In this context, Northern Europe usually means everything north of the Alps and Pyrenees.

Greece's problem is that the society is broken as well as the economy. It's will require a profound re-making of the anti-state culture to make it function again. You can't have a nation made of anarchists.
Greek president Papoulias said last month that the Greeks have to "refound their nation". I thought that hit the nail on its head.
 
Greece's problem is that the society is broken as well as the economy. It's will require a profound re-making of the anti-state culture to make it function again. You can't have a nation made of anarchists.


Fair point. What you're saying is that the Greeks should, just like the Germans after WW2, shed of their old ways. Like the Germans, they will only do that if they realize their old ways are destructive. So should we maybe let them suffer?
 
The issue is, in Germany, everybody suffered at the end of WW2 (barring some war criminals who fled to Argentina). In Greece, only the poor suffer.
 
I think comparing Greece to post war Germany is a little off the mark in a number of ways.

But yes, if there's something that shakes up the belief that the current system can be perpetuated, it would certainly be helpful. Another argument for bankruptcy.
 
Well, yeah, of course you can't compare post WW2 Germany with Greece in many ways. What I'm saying is that in order for people to be willing to change their situation, they need to perceive it as unfavorable. Hence the comparison.

The question is, how can you make rich Greeks, who pay little or no tax, perceive their situation as unfavorable?
 
Not at all, because their situation isn't unfavourable. That's the problem.
 
I've seen a couple of posts about some currencies (swiss franc, dane krone, etc) being pegged to the Euro.
Isn't that kind of a "so what"? Can't they, rather painlessly, unpeg?

Just guessing here... can someone who knows explain to me the reality?
 
Of course. The French economy is neither like the German/Dutch economies nor like the Southern economies. Generally, it is rather balanced but has lost out a bit against the Northern economies over the past years. The detoriation of the French current account balance speaks volumes about it. So do bond rates, unemployment and other indicators. If Southern Europe leaves, France will have to decide if it wants to stay in one boat with the Germans et al. or if it wants to lead Southern Europe. There are points to be made for either side. A Hollande victory in the French elections next month may change the odds.

That is also my view. France will be the state to decide the end of the Euro. The other southern states are delaying for as long as possible, perhaps out of pure folly or fear, but I'm getting the idea that there is a growing expectation of a "southern Euro" as a fix.

Also, is it an account with a German bank in Germany? If so, your deposits will almost certainly get converted into Euros in the event of a Euro crash (Zwangskonvertierung). Check the general terms and conditions of that account carefully.

I wouldn't thing of that for Germany. But I am expecting it to happen in the countries leaving the Euro in order to devalue its currency. The situation of Germany is, for the time being, the opposite.

I believe a separation of Greece is the most probable scenario. Nobody will want that, but in the end there's not much options for them. Italy will be saved, despite their corruption level, by a (somewhat) strengthening world economy.

There is absolutely no way it can be contained to Greece. There are two separate problems, each of which is enough to cause the collapse of the Euro, and they affect multiple counties. One is the continuous very negative current accounts balances of certain countries, which can only be fixed without serous political turmoil through devaluation of a national currency. The other, more serious and widespread (though easier to fix if there was the will to do it) is the huge interest-bearing national debts. Fixing that second problem is done by suspending payment of interest (or continuing to pay it but letting banks accumulate more public debt by financing the banks) through borrowing from a central bank at (near) zero interest. This too the EU has officially forbidden. It's nevertheless allowing the financing of banks from the ECB so they can retain bought debt, and launching increasing (and increasingly politically troublesome) loans to finance new debt. But the interest rates continue to be unsustainable. And this is not just a Greek problem. Many countries are facing it.

I've seen a couple of posts about some currencies (swiss franc, dane krone, etc) being pegged to the Euro.
Isn't that kind of a "so what"? Can't they, rather painlessly, unpeg??

They can, but it'll cause severe problems to their exporters. Which in turn causes rising unemployment, more state expenses against less revenue, and possibly budget problems. Some (like the swiss) have ample margin to absorb that but still fear the scale of what may happen, other not so much.

And when I say ample margin I must admit I'm not very clear on the actual power of the swiss central government and the Swiss National Bank, which (afaik) is private. It may turn out to be an illusory "heaven" for all those moving money there from southern Europe, as supposedly has been happening. The swiss too would probably have to change their institutional arrangements to weather a financial crisis.
 
There are probably only about 3 countries that should have been allowed to join the euro, it has been the worse thing for europe, the eu is in itself a good idea bringing countries closer together but the euro has been found to be a disaster not allowing different countries to set their own economic policies, unfortunately for certain EU states to say this publicily would be to lose face so they go on denying realiry, I am glad the UK stayed out.
 
Yes, the euro is flawed, nobody would deny that. And that's why our biggest priorities are to patch up the flaws.
As far as the EU, I see that as something different altogether and although I can imagine critique on the euro, I would found it hard to see more cons than pros for the EU.
I see the economic union and EMU as two distinct variables. What I would ask is under which system will the well being of the citizens be maximized as the ultimate policy goal of governments?

I can make a strong case for #1 but using economic theory developed by one of your own, Jan Tinbergen, I can't for #2. His work "macro-controllability" suggests that instruments must be greater than targets. If targets are inflation, employment and trade balances and instruments are money growth, interest rates, fiscal policy and currency value then you're -2 under the EMU versus +1 when not. It doesn't help that economic correlation is only .58 for these respective countries so goose/gander doesn't allow for that kind of integration.

Ultimately, we have to ask is not will the euro survive but whether it should? Pyrrhic victory at best and mistake at worst.

I know it is probably frustrating for Americans to offer easy solutions to complicated problems but all you need to remind us of is it took well over a century for economic integration, even with political unification, to develop from the late 18th century till the early 20th century. Not assured even if we assume political unity.
 
Back
Top Bottom