GOZ3 -(Totally Barbaric)-C3C

[grahamiam]

Originally posted by microbe
What should we do next? Probably go on offense and take out Germany? Then probably we want to ally with England, then turn around and get England.

imho, if we go on the offensive, i think signing peace with Germany and then going after England makes the most sense. Germany territory is pretty lame and England has gems. Germany is scientific so we probably want to deal her up to the MA and see what she gets.

 

[akots]

Got it, will play tomorrow. (If it's my turn, apparently it is). Please discuss something. IMO, giving Germany to MA is a bad idea. Guess, we'll get something from Great Library hopefully Feudalism. Our swords would certainly try to capture and slaughter Caesar and Bismark. No peace to either. May be pop-rush something in corrupt cities.

 

[grahamiam]

think of it this way, akots, even if they don't get feudalism, it gives us a better chance to quickly get up the tech tree. I have a feeling we are going to want to research chivalry ourselves, to give us an advantage for future fights. if we can get the 1st tier MA techs for free, then we should be in very good shape to research chiv, then go conquer some more squares.

if you want to pound germany into a backwater before getting them to the MA, i certainly understand (and this is probably better than my 1st idea). we'll be spread out but should be ok. however, if you don't want to take advantage of thier sci trait at all, then i ask you to review your opinion

 

[microbe]

Originally posted by grahamiam
I have a feeling we are going to want to research chivalry ourselves, to give us an advantage for future fights.

Not sure about this..we could also save all the money to upgrade horses to knights as soon as we learn it from the GL, 120g each is expensive, but we could focus on market/library right now.

 

[akots]

Ye, knights rule! Are we allowed to make peace with Germany and then re-declare immediately (Gotm rules) or must wait 20 turns (RBC rules)? Do we need reputation then?

 

[grahamiam]

Originally posted by microbe
Not sure about this..we could also save all the money to upgrade horses to knights as soon as we learn it from the GL, 120g each is expensive, but we could focus on market/library right now.

i guess i wasn't clear... I meant that we stay the course till we can research chivalry. I'm not suggesting researching 1st tier techs. We are making 81gpt and have over 1600g in the bank. (this equals 13 knights plus 2/3 of a knight every turn we are hording cash). Since all rushing is pop rushing, we should have a lot of cash on hand when it's time to research chivalry.

 

[gozpel]

Even if we are barbarian scum, we shouldn't break any deals intentionally. We do pretty well anyways

 

[microbe]

Originally posted by grahamiam
i guess i wasn't clear... I meant that we stay the course till we can research chivalry. I'm not suggesting researching 1st tier techs.

I understand this, but I am just too stingy to research anything (except Printing Press) before GL expires. I don't think we need knights that badly and I'd rather save every penny for upgrade. AI also values Chivalry a lot so we have a high chance of getting it from GL.

That depends on the situation of course..

 

[akots]

OK, we are more or less honorable barbarians. Just always use pop-rushing governments.

The serious plan is to build up some decent horsemen military for upgrade to knights and warriors for swordsmen upgrade by temporarily disconnecting iron and sitting more or less defensively against Germany. Re Gifting Bismark into MA. To trade for MA tech, Germany needs contacts with other scientific civilizations which they apparently do not have. At least not with Shumer. Hence, we would not be able to acquire their techs from Great Library. May be there is a way around but I don't see it. I also have an evil war plan. Declare against the England as well rather soon and when Germany is ready to talk peace after we do some substantial damage, make peace coupled to alliance against England. Hope this would create major chaos with some English troops caught in German territory. Optionally, we should have chopped some route towards England through Germany by then to have direct contact. Also, it might be a good idea to build more cities and use them for occasional whipping.

 

[grahamiam]

@akots, sounds like a good plan, though england does not need to cross german territory to get to us. germany is at the bottom of the landmass while england is to the east. they are mostly seperated by water. germany is open for peace right now so you can make it at the time that suites us best

i like knights a lot so i differ with microbe on that point i would prefer getting chivalry sooner rather than waiting for 2 AI's to get it before us, but that's just me.

 

[akots]

SAVE

Downgraded from 1.20 and teleported. Brief survey of our holdings reveals very few changes to be reasonable. We are pathetic with navy, so some builds switched to galleys. Iron pillaged for build of warriors. Made peace to Portugal for some remote city Luanda which is set to build a galley for exploration around that area. Wanted to declare war to England and a weird thing happened. I tried to see how powerful we are and asked if they can give us a city. Picked last one from the list (Birmingham) and .. Beth gave it away. Guess she is scared to death. Sorry about that but we are stuck at peace with England for 20 turns unless they declare by themselves. It all then comes to Germany. This resulted in some decrease in happiness (weird) but luxuries have to go up to 20%. We have not enough MP in the large cities. Whipped temple in Neapolis. Hippo switched to Aqueduct.

IBT. Two German horses die at Hannover. We get Monotheism from Great Library. Neapolis Temple->warrior, Oea sword->warrior, Cadiz NM->courthouse, Nora rax->warrior, Russadir Temple->harbor. Hittites have Feudalism.

[1] 70AD. Malaca founded. Army advancing to Antium. Defeated Roman galley with a run-away settler. We need to make peace with Caesar for Viroconium which is on a 1-tile island.
IBT. We learn Republic but stay happy with Despotism. Sabratha sword->warrior.

[2] 90AD. Some builds switched to horsemen but some stay for warriors for MP.
IBT. Oea warrior->warrior.

[3] 110AD. Antium falls. Make peace with Caesar for Viroconium+19g+2gpt. Build Embassy in Lisbon.
IBT. German archers move to our undefended Birmingham. Carthage completes Heroic Epic. Back to settler factory. Veii temple->court, Sabratha warrior-warrior, Oea grows and riots.

[4] 130AD. Some troops move. IBT. Germany burns Birmingham.

[5] 150AD. Many builds were set to temples. It is hard for this set up to continue with military production. Not complaining but we should have set the priorities. IBT. Carthage settler->horse, Rusicade grows and riots (I hate this new feature), Oea warrior->warrior.

[6] 170AD. Some worker movement and mm. IBT. Re-traded incense from Hittites for Dyes+13gpt. Utica market->settler, Cumae temple->settler

[7] 190AD. More mm but not too much. We learn Feudalism. Will go to Chivalry in .. 14 turns at minus 33 gpt. This is weird.

[8] 210AD. L magna goes to STAW in 16 turns. We can get some decent MDI force after the iron is hooked up. Also started a couple of crazy mountain-mining projects. May be discontinued by next player but since we are stuck in Despotism, this may be an option. IBT. Carthage horse->settler, Theveste temple->galley.

[9] 230AD. Gades founded, building warriors for MP duty. Whip temple in Rome.

[10] 250AD. Kill German horse and spear protecting settler. Some more troop movement. We are now second in score and apparently first in power. Culture is still pathetic even with all these temples. We went really heavy for them. Future looks very bright. We can get a very decent force of MDI and knights and wipe out Germany and England very rapidly and rather soon. Spain may be next. Good luck!

 

[microbe]

Sorry about that but we are stuck at peace with England for 20 turns unless they declare by themselves.

Why? You asked for tribute, but not peace treaty, we can declare war any time.

Also Luanda is building a galley but undefended, should we switch to warrior? Or we don't care about that city?

Will go to Chivalry in .. 14 turns at minus 33 gpt. This is weird.

For research on Chivalry, I still think we should save the money. We are not in a position to self-research yet - how many libraries we have? Many of our core cities don't even have market. It will also speed up AIs to get to Education. Carthage is even building a settler - I don't see why? I'll switch it to market. I think we need to start focus on infra (courthouse in corrupted cities, market/library in core cities).

And we don't have FP..I'll switch Ocea to it.

By the way, have we used our GA yet? If not, I'd like to use it to push the infra.

Comments before I start to play.

 

[grahamiam]

Originally posted by akots
Made peace to Portugal for some remote city Luanda which is set to build a galley for exploration around that area.

nice turns Akots. however, the peace deal you made with Portugal probably hurt our rep as we were in alliances with Spain and Sumeria (see T2 of my log). oh well, we are barbaric so who could expect us to hold our word?

good luck microbe. you know my opinion on chivalry so i won't restate it imho, GA now may be good to build infrastructure like you stated.

FP location should be considered carefully, as we'll probably want to move our palace at some point. Nora or Utica would probably have a better effect than Oea(?) as it will drive down the distance corruption in more cities. However, since we're moving the palace at some point, then those locations may be no good depending on the new palace location. iirc, the idea was to put the palace in Hippo or Nora or Utica with a FP in Carthage or LM

 

[microbe]

good luck microbe. you know my opinion on chivalry so i won't restate it imho, GA now may be good to build infrastructure like you stated.

I'd like a vote on this.

Researching Chivalry would cost about 103g per turn and that's ~1200g in total. We have 2029g in bank right now.

FP location should be considered carefully, as we'll probably want to move our palace at some point. Nora or Utica would probably have a better effect than Oea(?) as it will drive down the distance corruption in more cities.[/B]

In C3C the FP location isn't very important as I understand it, so I want to build it in the best city possible. Nora would take forever to complete. Unica has the same shield as Oea with 2 more pop, so maybe it's better, but soon it will have happiness problems.

 

[akots]

@microbe: Well, the game looks a bit cheesy now, so you may feel free to screw it up a little bit to make the things more interesting. Unless other players have objections No offense please. I already did by making peace with Portugal. But keep in mind that we need more cities and horsemen. Infrastructure is not a priority in a military game. All we need is Chivalry and then give away Great Library and recapture it in Industrial Age. However, this may be not an option if we get some other wonder in L magna. FP location is extremely important. It would be a good idea to have FP in Carthage and Palace in Utica and really bad idea to get it in Oea. And we don't care about Luanda. Libraries... hmm... we are supposed to be barbaric. I suggest no libraries ever or universities.

@grahamiam: Sorry for screwing our rep, did not pay attention to alliances. Hope our trade rep is more or less OK because I bought insence from Hittites and had no problem with that. They even offered some cash for dyes. Indeed, I did not renegotiate peace with Beth, so war is an option. But it can wait for iron hooked to upgrade swords to MDI.

We are pretty ready for GA. it may boost horsemen production and this would greatly shorten research to Chivalry and hence speed up conquest of the home continent.

 

[microbe]

@akots: no offense taken, I am a less experienced player after all, especially in such a military variant - DI3 was my only completed SG, and it indeed had a very similar situation and we didn't do any infra and finished it in 1000AD, but it was a standard pangea map and we were able to switch to Republic. In this case I don't think we can do it so fast and I think we will need to do research thus the infra suggestion.

What I'm asking for is a plan that everybody agrees on. I was away for one week so probably I missed some discussion here. If the GL recapturing is the plan, then why is it building Sun Tzu's now? I'll probably screw it up if the plan isn't clear to me.

If we aim for a fast military win and don't care about research, I'll go for it, but more detail would be appreciated. For example, what after controlling our own continent? How do we keep up in research after GL expires?

EDIT: FP location - all I read about is in C3C it reduces OCN and location isn't very much relevant (no 2nd core). You want it in carthage? But it's the capital.

I have to say I'm confused. I'll wait for more clarification before I start.

 

[akots]

Don't know about research. Pulling some trick with brokering might help. But if the rep is toasted, it might be tough after Printing Press. Sorry again for screwing with it. We still have to contact Inca, Korea, and Netherlands. Map is large, so Domination before 1000AD is barely possible IMHO. Looks like our continent + Hittites is not enough. We need Spain+Shumer+big chunk of Portugal as well. It all may be possible to pull with knights only even against muskets but would be probably tough at a certain point. Don't know really. We can whip lots of military (horsemen, especially with STAW this makes sense) but not that many libraries.

Edited: cross-posted with microbe editing the post. I'm already sick and tired of discussion about corruption and FP placement. SirPleb has his own opinion on the subject and just goes for FP somewhere in the first ring. So, to make it short, with our map layout, we can have something very much resembling the second core with FP in Carthage and Palace in Utica or Nora. Just have to rush the latter with the leader in Nora/Utica and before this build courthouse in Carthage and then, build the former in Carthage. This is all due to the shape of the map. We cannot have second ring as a whole ring because of narrow land shape.

 

[grahamiam]

@akots -> if it makes you feel any better, i made a similar mistake in another SG. we may be ok since, as you stated, we were still able to pay gpt for some lux.

since the Sun's build pretty much makes giving away LM a farty idea, we'll have to squeeze tech's out of other civ's via the sword. i don't mind building librarys since we'll still take the despot hit, but if the group wants to stay "barbaric", then all research comes by force.

 

[microbe]

I'll finish the Sun Tzu's, but I think giving away GL is still the best plan, and it will still benefit us after we get it back.

I'll not build libraries, but we still need market.

As of FP, I'll start it in Utica.

Happy now? I'll play soon.

 

[akots]

Originally posted by microbe
... As of FP, I'll start it in Utica. ...

Nooo!!! Palace would be in Utica rushed by a leader which I hope we can get soon enough. Carthage builds courthouse meanwhile. After Palace in Utica is finished, Carthage builds FP.