GR15 - AWE on Ultra Huge Map
- Thread starter Greebley
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Ansar
Détente avec l'été
lurker's comment: Ooh, pretty pictures.
Thanks M60!
Thanks M60!
ThERat
Deity
those flood plains towards Japan look good as science farms...
will start tonight, so people can chip in their opinion whether we should start with research towards gunpowder. I lean towards research since we got so much money...we can start with libraries as well as we want Mil Trad as soon as possible
will start tonight, so people can chip in their opinion whether we should start with research towards gunpowder. I lean towards research since we got so much money...we can start with libraries as well as we want Mil Trad as soon as possible
I would say research should wait, until we get Ed or at least GP from the GLB.
Reason, the money is good now, but won't last long once we self research. Additionally, GP is not going to do much for us right away. I forget the cost of Muskets, but in the main we will have a hard time getting them to the front and they cost too much.
If they are 50 Vs 30, we can build 5 pikes for 3 muskets. The 1 defense extra is not bad, but more often having two defenders is better. The lucky roll does not cost you the town. You get the MP effect.
Pile up cash to use for some of the rush buying and defict spending that we will be doing.
Our researching GP will make it cheaper for civs we know as well. It is either going to come to us for free or we will be getting Ed. Either way we can wait to start till we met some more civs.
We have some libs, I think, but can squeeze in some more here and there.
The thing is we need as many knioghts as we can get out the door. In order to get more aggressive we need lots of knights A bad side effect of using armies to do most of the killing is that we are not grooming very many elites.
I had few promotions and M60 did not mention many either. We will have to take losses though using knights straight up against other knights, but MDI and LB are fair game.
We have to get more knight armies to range farther and do more razing. GS armies are still slower and just are not going to fare all that well Vs forted pikes and knights in cities.
Reason, the money is good now, but won't last long once we self research. Additionally, GP is not going to do much for us right away. I forget the cost of Muskets, but in the main we will have a hard time getting them to the front and they cost too much.
If they are 50 Vs 30, we can build 5 pikes for 3 muskets. The 1 defense extra is not bad, but more often having two defenders is better. The lucky roll does not cost you the town. You get the MP effect.
Pile up cash to use for some of the rush buying and defict spending that we will be doing.
Our researching GP will make it cheaper for civs we know as well. It is either going to come to us for free or we will be getting Ed. Either way we can wait to start till we met some more civs.
We have some libs, I think, but can squeeze in some more here and there.
The thing is we need as many knioghts as we can get out the door. In order to get more aggressive we need lots of knights A bad side effect of using armies to do most of the killing is that we are not grooming very many elites.
I had few promotions and M60 did not mention many either. We will have to take losses though using knights straight up against other knights, but MDI and LB are fair game.
We have to get more knight armies to range farther and do more razing. GS armies are still slower and just are not going to fare all that well Vs forted pikes and knights in cities.
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
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I'm sorry to say it, but knights cost seventy shields, not eighty, so your admirably thorough MM of our knight-producing cities is wrong.
We're in a bad era and situation for the kill ratio, with our basic attack only 4-3, and the front so long we can't assemble enough bombardment units in any one place.
I think we should self-research Gunpowder. Even if it turns out to be the wrong call, the cost will be minor relative to our hoard of gold.
An interesting detail from the F3 screen: the Japanese have captured units from the Incas and the Americans.
Edit: I agree with Vmxa about the wretched cost-effectiveness of musketmen (which in fact cost sixty shields), but the point of Gunpowder would be to get us started on the road to cavalry, not to let us build muskets. We'd probably want to disconnect saltpetre until we learned Military Tradition.
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
As I said, five cities at 20 spt will provide a good supply of cavalry when the time comes. 
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
- Messages
- 6,673
We have to try it, but I wonder whether we'll get much benefit from science camps in this game. The city limit and the remoteness of our enemies may keep us from having enough towns until it's too late to matter.
If science farms aren't going to help us much, that will be a strong argument for a switch to communism when the time comes.
ThERat
Deity
Now, that I seriously doubt. We have a lot of land already and currently 51 cities. There are another 50 cities to be gained from the AI, if this is all our continent can provide.
I'd say if we have around 100+ cities, communism will be great. However, if there are more Civs lurking (and I don't think we can say anything for sure here), science farms will be the way to go. I remember our last huge map continent game, we had 200+ cities on our continent and with razing overseas, this swelled to many more.
Knowing that we have 1/2 of the luxes of the world, one can assume that there are more Civs somewhere, we simply didn't meet yet.
I think we will have science farms aplenty, of course we can always change to production later on once we have steam...
I also think we will have a lot of cities when we clear the continent.
I guess I am also in favor of self research as we may not get another tech for a while - Greeks were the leaders, but we won't get anything from them - therefore we have to meet 2 advanced civs to get it. Not sure that this will occur in the next 30 turns or not. In 30 turns I think we will be ahead of the AI (we will be into Metalurgy I think) unless we meet a really advanced civ (more likely on the other continent).
I guess I am also in favor of self research as we may not get another tech for a while - Greeks were the leaders, but we won't get anything from them - therefore we have to meet 2 advanced civs to get it. Not sure that this will occur in the next 30 turns or not. In 30 turns I think we will be ahead of the AI (we will be into Metalurgy I think) unless we meet a really advanced civ (more likely on the other continent).
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
I agree with turning science up. As Greebley points out, by beating up the Greeks, we're weakening our science partner. I don't see them bringing in gunpowder any time soon.
Science farms will be huge for exactly the reason ThERat says. If we do some dirty math, let's say our continent and continent X each hold 200 cities. If we're razing and replacing, we'll end up with 200 cities here. Designate 50 for production, that leaves 150 science farms. At 6 scientists each, 18 beakers per city, that's 2700 beakers per turn. That's enormous output considering any AI civ on continent X may have 50-60 cities at most.
But we need to get to steam power as soon as possible because we need to eliminate the distance factors on this huge map. Rails will do that in no time.
Science farms will be huge for exactly the reason ThERat says. If we do some dirty math, let's say our continent and continent X each hold 200 cities. If we're razing and replacing, we'll end up with 200 cities here. Designate 50 for production, that leaves 150 science farms. At 6 scientists each, 18 beakers per city, that's 2700 beakers per turn. That's enormous output considering any AI civ on continent X may have 50-60 cities at most.
But we need to get to steam power as soon as possible because we need to eliminate the distance factors on this huge map. Rails will do that in no time.
What is the victory type target? If it is conquest, then we do have to go to max research. If we know what the landmass size was, it would make it easier to figure out.
With steam beinng far out in the future, we need the 3 move cavs to get any place, so I guess I will reverse myself and say go self research. If the land lamss is not all that much larger than what we already can detect, then we could hold off.
With steam beinng far out in the future, we need the 3 move cavs to get any place, so I guess I will reverse myself and say go self research. If the land lamss is not all that much larger than what we already can detect, then we could hold off.
ThERat
Deity
executive summary for my turns:
- started research, halted then started again since TGL is obsolete
- thus 3 turns left on gunpowder
- met 2 new Civs (Inca + America)
- got us up to 60 cities
- 2 more knight armies (12 in total IIRC)
- started research, halted then started again since TGL is obsolete
- thus 3 turns left on gunpowder
- met 2 new Civs (Inca + America)
- got us up to 60 cities
- 2 more knight armies (12 in total IIRC)
ThERat
Deity
Pre-Turn
do extensive MM only to get the computer to completely hang before I can save this
reload original save..
switch on research, fire all taxmen and get scientists...there are many scientists we can employ already without losing any benefit
we can now get gunpowder in 10 at -100gpt, not too bad
it's Greece and Mayans we should go after since they are most advanced
IT no attacks, just some movements going on and we get a mere knight...
1.1060AD
Mayans have gunpowder now...maybe it would be better to switch off since we can expect to get that then...
very little action, but I do sink a Japanese galley
pound a stack of 8 Mayan units and lose 1 knight to a Greek redlined knight [10-1]
switch off research and employ back our taxman
IT seems I underestimated the Mayans, go 1:2 in the forest that is the current battleground
we get a settler, court, 2 pikes and 1 knight this time [11-3]
2.1070AD
defeat 3 units in Knossos, still units left [14-3]
another quiet turn, build up forces in the forest and advance some armies
IT fierce battle continues as we go 2:2 in that forest [16-5]
then 2 Greeks knight appear from fog in nowhereland but both retreat
this time we churn out 4 knights, 1 pike and a court
3. 1080AD
defeat both Greek knights
defeat 2 units and raze Knossos, Greek lose their horses
found Floodplains
defeat a first unit in Athens and Uaxactun
defeat 4 more stray units
go 3:1 in the forest amassing more units together [29-6]
IT setup in forest better now as we defeat 2 knight on defense
retreat a fog knight from Greece [32-6]
4.1090AD
while moving towards the Japanese colonies, meet the Incas
their are down invention, but have 25 cities, one of them is named New Orleans...we all know what that means, in fact they got Japanese cities as well
defeat 4 units in Athens, but a wounded knight shows up, armies too wounded to attack
move in another GS army and defeat an LB along the way
forest fights with Mayas result in 3 deaths, defeat 2 stray knights from Greece [41-6]
IT Mayan LB from fog defeats a pike, we then beat a knight [42-7]
5.1100AD
defeat 2 knights in Athens and another hoplite shows up....
lucky we got another army in range and raze city (we need more slaves, thus razing is good)
found Floodlines
defeat spear and take away japanese horses from their colony. Moving north spot Incan borders
but also knights...
defeat 5 assorted units, we are long overdue for a MGL and army, we need desperately more fo them [51-7]
IT lose a pike in the forest [51-8]
6.1110AD
cut a road to cut the Japanese iron
defeat a Incan knight on the way
move towards Argos
cut down 6 japanese units at our front
defeating a JW we finally get a MGL, he runs back town to from army next turn
defeat 2 more units there [61-8]
IT we go 1:1 again at the Mayan battleground
Japanese maces show up on the horizon, just on time to cut the iron/horses [62-9]
7.1120AD
form army
defeat 3 units and raze Argos, found coastline
march on to Sparta, march on to Incan Atico, great, run into a American archer
16 cities and down invention...we should have better started gunpowder
declare war
defeat 3 units, lose 1 [68-10]
being fed up, start research again at max, it will now take 6 turns
IT lousy performance again as we lose 2 units against fog gangsters [68-12]
Incans who are first in the IT always are sending numbers of knights down, Greebley will have to deal with them
8.1130AD
Maya have education now, so it was timely to start research yet again
3 units are slain and Sparta no more
Cowplains in the north founded
while defeating a redlined knight in slain forest get another MGL...good
slain a japanese spear
defeat 3 units and Atico is razed
found Black Forest
rush 3 settlers [76-12]
IT hmm, we learn education and TGL is obsolete
we still have 4 turns for gunpowder...not nice
9.1140AD
defeat 2 units in Corinth, one in Cuello...a stray greek knight
defeat 3 units and take Mycenae, keep it for now
march on to Delphi [83-12]
10.1150AD
defeat 3 units and raze Cuello for 40 gold
found Noviomagus
defeat 1 unit in Vitcos
defeat 2 units and take Corinth, move on to Herakleia
defeat 2 units and capture Delphi
defeat stray knight, move on to Ephesus, leave it to Greebley to abandon Mycenea (flip risk is there) (we have a
settler for replacement in the south)
Greece has a mere 3 cities left and we might take them out in 2-3 turns
forest fights continue with us taking out 6 units [98-12]
gunpowder is due in 3 (sorry my bad gamble)
now, we have the choice to go after Cavalry first or trying to chase Smiths
banking would take 8 turns and then maybe another 8 for economics
I would favor this as we need banking later on anyway and Smiths would be huge for us
we are in a stable situation as America/Japan and Incans have all fought wars and do not have those dreaded huge
stacks we usually face. Thus we could wait for cavalry a little longer
we have now 60 cities and can gain many more. we are the cultural leaders on our continent
we already employ 58 scientists and that is only going to increase...they will contribute in this game for sure
compare now 174 beakers from scientists versus 500 beakers at 90% science
we will break ever here sooner or later
save
do extensive MM only to get the computer to completely hang before I can save this
reload original save..
switch on research, fire all taxmen and get scientists...there are many scientists we can employ already without losing any benefit
we can now get gunpowder in 10 at -100gpt, not too bad
it's Greece and Mayans we should go after since they are most advanced
IT no attacks, just some movements going on and we get a mere knight...
1.1060AD
Mayans have gunpowder now...maybe it would be better to switch off since we can expect to get that then...
very little action, but I do sink a Japanese galley
pound a stack of 8 Mayan units and lose 1 knight to a Greek redlined knight [10-1]
switch off research and employ back our taxman
IT seems I underestimated the Mayans, go 1:2 in the forest that is the current battleground
we get a settler, court, 2 pikes and 1 knight this time [11-3]
2.1070AD
defeat 3 units in Knossos, still units left [14-3]
another quiet turn, build up forces in the forest and advance some armies
IT fierce battle continues as we go 2:2 in that forest [16-5]
then 2 Greeks knight appear from fog in nowhereland but both retreat
this time we churn out 4 knights, 1 pike and a court
3. 1080AD
defeat both Greek knights
defeat 2 units and raze Knossos, Greek lose their horses
found Floodplains
defeat a first unit in Athens and Uaxactun
defeat 4 more stray units
go 3:1 in the forest amassing more units together [29-6]
IT setup in forest better now as we defeat 2 knight on defense
retreat a fog knight from Greece [32-6]
4.1090AD
while moving towards the Japanese colonies, meet the Incastheir are down invention, but have 25 cities, one of them is named New Orleans...we all know what that means, in fact they got Japanese cities as well
defeat 4 units in Athens, but a wounded knight shows up, armies too wounded to attack
move in another GS army and defeat an LB along the way
forest fights with Mayas result in 3 deaths, defeat 2 stray knights from Greece [41-6]
IT Mayan LB from fog defeats a pike, we then beat a knight [42-7]
5.1100AD
defeat 2 knights in Athens and another hoplite shows up....
lucky we got another army in range and raze city (we need more slaves, thus razing is good)
found Floodlines
defeat spear and take away japanese horses from their colony. Moving north spot Incan borders
but also knights...
defeat 5 assorted units, we are long overdue for a MGL and army, we need desperately more fo them [51-7]
IT lose a pike in the forest [51-8]
6.1110AD
cut a road to cut the Japanese iron
defeat a Incan knight on the way
move towards Argos
cut down 6 japanese units at our front
defeating a JW we finally get a MGL, he runs back town to from army next turn
defeat 2 more units there [61-8]
IT we go 1:1 again at the Mayan battleground
Japanese maces show up on the horizon, just on time to cut the iron/horses [62-9]
7.1120AD
form army
defeat 3 units and raze Argos, found coastline
march on to Sparta, march on to Incan Atico, great, run into a American archer
16 cities and down invention...we should have better started gunpowder
declare war
defeat 3 units, lose 1 [68-10]
being fed up, start research again at max, it will now take 6 turns
IT lousy performance again as we lose 2 units against fog gangsters [68-12]
Incans who are first in the IT always are sending numbers of knights down, Greebley will have to deal with them
8.1130AD
Maya have education now, so it was timely to start research yet again
3 units are slain and Sparta no more
Cowplains in the north founded
while defeating a redlined knight in slain forest get another MGL...good
slain a japanese spear
defeat 3 units and Atico is razed
found Black Forest
rush 3 settlers [76-12]
IT hmm, we learn education and TGL is obsolete
we still have 4 turns for gunpowder...not nice
9.1140AD
defeat 2 units in Corinth, one in Cuello...a stray greek knight
defeat 3 units and take Mycenae, keep it for now
march on to Delphi [83-12]
10.1150AD
defeat 3 units and raze Cuello for 40 gold
found Noviomagus
defeat 1 unit in Vitcos
defeat 2 units and take Corinth, move on to Herakleia
defeat 2 units and capture Delphi
defeat stray knight, move on to Ephesus, leave it to Greebley to abandon Mycenea (flip risk is there) (we have a
settler for replacement in the south)
Greece has a mere 3 cities left and we might take them out in 2-3 turns
forest fights continue with us taking out 6 units [98-12]
gunpowder is due in 3 (sorry my bad gamble)
now, we have the choice to go after Cavalry first or trying to chase Smiths
banking would take 8 turns and then maybe another 8 for economics
I would favor this as we need banking later on anyway and Smiths would be huge for us
we are in a stable situation as America/Japan and Incans have all fought wars and do not have those dreaded huge
stacks we usually face. Thus we could wait for cavalry a little longer
we have now 60 cities and can gain many more. we are the cultural leaders on our continent
we already employ 58 scientists and that is only going to increase...they will contribute in this game for sure
compare now 174 beakers from scientists versus 500 beakers at 90% science
we will break ever here sooner or later
save
ThERat
Deity
some pictures
the remainder of what once was Greece, south of them Mayan land
Mayan land, do note that there seems to be a land connection way south what was assumed to be a dead end
the land of our new 'friends'
Incas have another 24 or so cities...
the remainder of what once was Greece, south of them Mayan land
Mayan land, do note that there seems to be a land connection way south what was assumed to be a dead end
the land of our new 'friends'
Incas have another 24 or so cities...
Smart
King
lurker's comment: Cool game, please give me one room in the Lurker's Hotel 
I like huge maps with all their potential.
I like huge maps with all their potential.
ThERat
Deity
as I pointed out I am in favor for the research to go gunpowder -> banking -> economics then towards Mil Trad
with let's say potentially 30 markets/banks/harbors (or even more), the gpt savings will be immense
We should not miss that. We could start a prebuild if we decide to go for this, our FP city is currently set for uni..but could be swapped
with let's say potentially 30 markets/banks/harbors (or even more), the gpt savings will be immense
We should not miss that. We could start a prebuild if we decide to go for this, our FP city is currently set for uni..but could be swapped
Now we at least know we have a very large contient to deal with. How many civs have we met now? With 2 eliminated, must be a very large landmass.
Yeah a pre for Smith will save us a lot of gold for the rest of the game. We cannot rely on capturing any wonder in time to be useful as they may be very far away fom us for all we know.
Yeah a pre for Smith will save us a lot of gold for the rest of the game. We cannot rely on capturing any wonder in time to be useful as they may be very far away fom us for all we know.
madviking
north american scum
Shouldn't be it American?ThERat said:
ThERat
Deity
They must have captured New Orleans, which was American, but besides that, I also saw at least one Japanese city name in their list...I am sure they have fought 2 wars at least involving America and Japan.
That is why those 3 Civs will not have huge stacks any longer (and in fact the reason why we get a really pathetic trickle from Japan). This is a relief for us as we won't have to handle too many units.
However, the Incas are sending down some knights, but I guess traffic jams on the congested hills are keeping them slow...beware though (we do have plenty of knights and artillery in the area for future defense, so shouldn't be an issue, in fact the Japanese units are great leader fodder)
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
Haven't had one in a bit.
Roster:
Greebley (up)
markh (on deck)
Northern Pike
vmxa
M60A3TTS
ThERat (just played)
Roster:
Greebley (up)
markh (on deck)
Northern Pike
vmxa
M60A3TTS
ThERat (just played)
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