Greatest President

Which one was the Greastest American President?

  • Washinton

    Votes: 6 11.3%
  • Jefferson

    Votes: 2 3.8%
  • Lincoln

    Votes: 11 20.8%
  • Teddy Roosevelt

    Votes: 1 1.9%
  • Franklin D. Roosevelt

    Votes: 11 20.8%
  • Reagan

    Votes: 8 15.1%
  • Bush (The eleder)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Clinton

    Votes: 7 13.2%
  • Other (please specify)

    Votes: 7 13.2%

  • Total voters
    53
Originally posted by MrPresident
although the 1812 war was not entirely to do with that, it still goes against the basic tradition...

However much of this land was thought to be American anyway, for example one of the original colonies (I think Virginia) claimed all the land from the Alantic to the Pacific. The Native Americans were not treated as a nation and so expasion into their terrority was justified at the time. However Mexico was a separate nation and recognised as such, so to start a war with it and then take some of its terrority can be considered Empire building. By the war Texas was a separate nation for about 10 years (I think) before it joined the USA why wasn't its borders sorted out then?


1. Yup, about 1812, as I said, I didn't think it was the main reason either. I would say that British impressment of sailors and the blockade were more important causes of the war, but a crucial factor was the desire for conquest. I can say that with some confidence because there is a measuring stick: senate votes in favour of war. The decisive margin was provided by the Western states, who specifically argued for expansion as a benefit of war with Britain.

2. The odd thing is, until they hit the prairies, the Americans DID treat the Native Americans like nations - they just treated them particularly badly (something like the way Germany treated Poland as a nation, but I digress - and note that Canada often did the same). Treaties with native nations were common, and the various native nations in the east were fairly sedentary.

3. By way of an answer on the border dispute, I should note that it took about forty years for Canada to sort out its border with the US after Confederation. Russia and China still can't agree on their borders along the Amur over a century after those borders were fixed. Mexico and Texas never figured it out because it didn't really matter enough to either until the border became an American border instead of a Texan one.

In short, I don't think empire building was a founding tradition of the US, but it was a tradition. Fair to say it ended between 1919-1945. At least, I'd say that. Others on this forum would beleive that September 11th was a ploy to add Afghanistan as the 51st state, but....
 
Originally posted by knowltok2


I would ask who the most recent President of the opposite party was that, given hindsight, any of us would consider voting over the two most recent candidates. So if you lean republican, what mostrecent democratic president would you have voted for over Bush? Vice versa for the democrats. Who would you vote for out of history as opposed to Al Gore?

Mine would be FDR.


Well, once again although FDR did an outstanding Job with his circumstances, I'd vote Truman.
 
Originally posted by Richard III
Others on this forum would beleive that September 11th was a ploy to add Afghanistan as the 51st state, but....

51? There are plenty of prov...I mean future states that are in line ahead of Afganistan for #51 ;)
 
Originally posted by knowltok2


It is way too soon in my opinion, but given current information it is not inconcievable that in 20 years if events transpire in a favorable way, some people may think so. (I know, this thought makes you shudder Voodoo) FDR is the most recent President in my mind that can even come close to getting consideration for "Greatest President"

I do find it interesting that only with the passage of much time does partisanship fall away. I would ask who the most recent President of the opposite party was that, given hindsight, any of us would consider voting over the two most recent candidates. So if you lean republican, what mostrecent democratic president would you have voted for over Bush? Vice versa for the democrats. Who would you vote for out of history as opposed to Al Gore?

Mine would be FDR.

Hhhhmmmm.....I liked Ike. Well, I wasn't born until 6 years after his Presidency ended, but anyway....

Ike probably is somewhat underrated (I mean, he was IKE afterall)....I'm not sure why. He was the first 'true' Cold War prez, held his ground but didn't allow himself, or the nation, to get too militant. He displayed a good balance....was tough enough, but didn't overdo it.

He sent the National Guard into Little Rock, which took guts. Another thing I liked about the guy is he thought McCarthy was a nut case.
 
Originally posted by VoodooAce
Ike probably is somewhat underrated (I mean, he was IKE afterall)....I'm not sure why. He was the first 'true' Cold War prez, held his ground but didn't allow himself, or the nation, to get too militant. He displayed a good balance....was tough enough, but didn't overdo it.

He sent the National Guard into Little Rock, which took guts.
I like Ike too, but how did Ike send the National Guard to Little Rock... don't State Governer's control the National Guard?

Originally posted by Centrifuge
I'd vote Truman.
I voted Clinton on the polls to piss off the conservatives :D But if I actually had to pick it would be Truman or Washington.
Truman never got the glory assignments, but he made many, many important decisions in the closing days of the War and through his terms that basically set up the next 50 years. Many difficult decisions that could have had painfully different outcomes, and many that had painfully inclusive outcomes.
 
Anyhow, shouldn't you USA-types be looking at your current and future leaders, instead of all this retro-arguing?

Who cares about Ronnie Raygun, he's well past his sell-by-date anyway!
Just like Maggie Thatcher...

:confused:
 
Originally posted by Greadius
I like Ike too, but how did Ike send the National Guard to Little Rock... don't State Governer's control the National Guard?

Uh. Uhm. Uh. I dunno. :confused:

Someone clarify, please??????

I know he sent troops in. I know it. At least I thought I knew it.

How did this work, because, as far as I know, Graedius is right in that its the governors that control each state's NG.

Ok. Confused. Will troll the web when I get home. Hopefully we can get a good CFCer to help us out before then.
 
Originally posted by CurtSibling
Anyhow, shouldn't you USA-types be looking at your current and future leaders, instead of all this retro-arguing?
confused:

You are absolutely correct! In fact, I should stop playing Civ, watching TV, and reading fiction. I should focus all of my time on current issues in an all out effort to make things better. I also shouldn't waste time making whimsical and sarcastic replies to people on-line. ;)

Sorry Curt, all in good fun :)

Seriously though, many of us are just going to come to the same impasses that we have reached time and again over current issues. By delving into the past for common ground, we may come closer to reaching a common understanding. Imagine the power of VoodooAce naming a Republican President that he and RMsharpe might agree on. Imagine RM doing the same with a democrat. Imagine there's no heaven. It's easy if you try.:)

Boy, I'm just in a slap-happy grinning ass mood this morning. Don't wory though, someone will post something soon that sends he back to my bitter and cynical self in short order.:p
 
Originally posted by VoodooAce


Uh. Uhm. Uh. I dunno. :confused:

Someone clarify, please??????

I know he sent troops in. I know it. At least I thought I knew it.

How did this work, because, as far as I know, Graedius is right in that its the governors that control each state's NG.

Ok. Confused. Will troll the web when I get home. Hopefully we can get a good CFCer to help us out before then.

He sent in paratroopers from the 101st Airborne Division, as IIRC, the state governor had been using the NG to block entrance to the school.
Federal troops were then sent in, and Mr. Ike went on TV to speak about it.

There was an interesting and quite good movie made on this subject...
 
I'd have to say what Ronald Reagan did was pretty amazing. He inherited a country with 10% unemployment, 19% (approx.) inflation and a shrinking economy.

So what if he went into deficit spending. It was better to sow the seeds of economic growth so we could balance the budget today. The U.S.S.R. tried desperately to match the military spending of the United States by borrowing money on economic growth they could never achieve, this is what caused their collapse. He is the best president I've lived under.

Clinton on the other hand was an idiot. When he first took office he claimed he could balance the budget in 10 years, 8 years, 11 years. The point is he didn't have a clue or a plan. He was a guy in the back seat of a race car. He wasn't driving, but he's getting credit for not wrecking it:goodjob: The cause for the economic growth of the last decade was unprecidented gains in productivity 3.0%+ yearly, not slick willie's economic policy (or lack there of).
 
Originally posted by knowltok2


I for one don't care a whit about the mistress thing for his job performance. That he lied to the American people point blank is what bothers me. Between perjury in court and saying that he did not have sexual relations with Monica destroys his credibility. Greatness would have been looking into the camera and telling me that it is none of my damn business.


True, true. But as it should have been, it should have never been brought up in the first place. And telling the american public "its none of their damn business" is just not too politically intelligent. Being a public figure, that would seriously hurt approval ratings.

Point is the whole thing should have never been brought up.
 
Point is the whole thing should have never been brought up.
Are you saying that the Clinton-Monica affair should never have been bought to the public's attention. This implies that Clinton should have done a Nixon-type conspiracy. Or it implies that the media had no right to report on something that was "none of their business". I find fault with this if it was done behind close doors at an out of town motel but this was done in the oval office. I may not be American but the oval office still means a lot to me. The oval office represents the President of the United States, the highest elected person in the whole country. What you do as President in your time should or should not be public property. But what you do as President in the oval office is certainly accountable to the people.
 
No, I believe what he's referring to is the fact that the ridiculous way the right went after him. Starr was the a special investigator brought in to investigate WHITEWATER.

The equivalent would be having a special prosecutor appointed on Enron. And then to have the prosecutor begin to probe into the personal life of duhbya. Poking, prodding, searching, investigating, dredging for witnessess that were brought out by right wing magazines (and some $$ exchanging hands?).

AND to have that prosecutor asking questions about all of this IRRELEVANT CRAP while duhbya's under oath. And then, to investigate each point he was questioned on, dredge up something, and then use that information to impeach him.

:vomit: :vomit: :vomit:

Luckily, though, they could not get away with it without committing political suicide because America was still behing Bubba and recognized the Congressional lynching for what it was.

I believe this is what he may have been referring to. Just a guess, though.
 
The equivalent would be having a special prosecutor appointed on Enron. And then to have the prosecutor begin to probe into the personal life of duhbya. Poking, prodding, searching, investigating, dredging for witnessess

And then having duhbya ask the meaning of the word is.:lol:
 
Luckily, though, they could not get away with it without committing political suicide because America was still behing Bubba and recognized the Congressional lynching for what it was.
I thought they couldn't impeach him because several top Republicans were found to also be having extra-martial affairs. Also there was no point in doing it since it was near the end of his second and final term.
 
Being a hardcore liberal, and always voting for Democrats or farther left candidates, if I had to choose my favorite recent Republican president it would George H.W. Bush. He got lambasted for raising taxes, but he did what he needed to, not what was popular, which I can respect. Besides that he was a fairly moderate President, at least much more so than Reagan or George W.
 
Originally posted by Fallen Angel Lord
And telling the american public "its none of their damn business" is just not too politically intelligent. Being a public figure, that would seriously hurt approval ratings.

Well, all hail political expediency over integrity. :rolleyes:

I won't argue whether it should have been brought up or not, but given that it was, I view lying to me in a dimmer light than telling me a truth I don't like. Clinton simply tried to get away with everything once he was caught instead of facing up to it.
 
Originally posted by knowltok2
"... Saw an article that said that in an ABC news poll African Americans rated Bill Clinton the Greatest President. ..."

History has showen that, generally, slaves are always LOYAL to their MASTERS

( Slaves ::: slaves to the hand-outs earnted by the swet of others)
( Masters ::: Marxest-Democrats that steal the labors of workers to give to their 'slaves' to keep them happy & in-slaved.)

So there is nothing unusual about the outcome of the ABC poll; its just the "Masters" polling their slaves -- what do you expect????

"... Whites voted for Abraham Lincoln. ..."

A free-man looks for reality & truth.


:crazyeyes
 
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