[Guide] Mauling Deity

[slowcar]

In my opinion this "guide" could mislead new players.
On the other hand, every player that seriously attempts Deity should know better.

 

[Justice1337]

I don't think this general strategy works. I'll leave it to the more experienced players to give a thorough critique, but I also just wanted to point out a few inconsistencies.

First, you mention that reloading past saves does a disservice to yourself, but then you explicitly advocate rerolling until you get the starting Capital location that you describe. I don't understand how you can take both positions.

You mention that you need to have a spotter 5-tiles away from your border cities, but then you fail to mention what (if anything) you can do when a surprise attack comes. This on Marathon speed, mind you, where you can't change your build orders in time.

You list the G-Lib as a Must Wonder, then you go on to suggest Pyramids in certain games, then further put the Oracle as a must. I doubt all these Wonders are possible in the same game on Diety, but even if they were, it would be OCC until at least turn 120 w/ Tradition and w/o buying Settlers. If you're buying Settlers, you need to say how and when. Otherwise, that's inconsistent with the existence of advice on how to build and defend "border cities". In fact, you explicitly say that you don't expand until NC is built in Capital (on top of all these Wonders), but then you show a Screenshot of a border city defended by 2 Legion and 2 CB's. Legion are certainly outdated by the time you research Iron Working in your chosen tech-path, and likely CB's are as well by T120'ish when you get around to expanding.

Given that you're not expanding until NC is done, and you're stealing Workers for all CS's, why build Pyramids? Wonder Spam?

Circus Maximus is not a World Wonder. You said you'd beat the AI to it all the time because of how it expands, but you're never locked out of it because it's a National Wonder.

You say that City States are most useful as a Worker factory. Beyond that issue being highly debatable in your suggested OCC Wonder-spam game, you don't mention where you're getting units beyond the initial Warrior to steal these Workers. Your Build Order is very cramped for this to be any more than a mid-game ploy, at which point I'm not sure it matters.


One substantive point. I have to disagree that kill melee first is a good strategy. It's definitely not with the defensive setup you've screenshotted here. Leaving Ranged alone, you lose the city if one Warrior gets next to it and survives for a single turn. Meanwhile, the only function being served by the fortified Legions here is to limit the number of squares adjacent to your city and available to AI melee. The best in this situation, and most other situations, is to eliminate Seige first, then Ranged, while letting two melee break their backs trying to attack the city over the river. There's not enough space for just melee to take down the city without support.

I'm suspicious about whether this guide is rooted in proven, consistent play at the Diety level.

 

[Blicero]

Circus Maximus is not a World Wonder. You said you'd beat the AI to it all the time because of how it expands, but you're never locked out of it because it's a National Wonder.

That was awesome.

 

[BrokTheFanatic]

He's on marathon and so a few things shift a bit. Like worker stealing, you can go much further to grab workers. Barbs also make for better returns on Epic and Marathon (I suggest turning barbs off on epic and marathon speeds. Barbs can be readily exploited in many ways, just moreso the slower the game pace).

Also seems to assume a good or great start, which isn't a terrible assumption for new players. I definitely tried great starts first on Diety (salt+another lux and a river with some hills is just so much better than flat land with say, ivory and incense ).

As have been stated before, I find going for GL to be a 33% option, so you fail more often than not. Oracle is nice but rarely something I have the production to go for when you need to start on it. Pyramids are very good to build but also risky, but much less so than GL, especially if I have trees all over, can usually get Pyramids built in that case (in fact, if I don't have any city-states or AIs to get some workers from, it seems to be a good wonder to go for). The main problem with early wonders is if you fail, it usually means you need to start over.

 

[The Pilgrim]

In my opinion this "guide" could mislead new players.
On the other hand, every player that seriously attempts Deity should know better.

Deity players do know better, the real problem - new players that are playing on lower levels and trying to improve don't and take it as is.

 

[Falconiano]

This might be what works for you/don't work for others, but I think it's put together so well, and answers so many questions (at least for me) that it should be a sticky. It's hard for me to come up with specific questions, as a complete beginner. This will help a bunch.

Do you have any videos with commentary?

I'm happy this helps and you're left without questions, seems like I wrote up all I wanted.
Have fun

My dear friend

You are either a genius to pull this off or i am way worse than i think that i am....

GL, Oracle, Pyramids NC on Deity, is there some magic trick?

Would you care joining the GotM series or challenges and show us?

- GL is viable a good 70% of the times if you go worker>shrine>GL.
You immediately get +15% wonder construction from tradition tier 1 for this purpose.
If Egypt that adds up to +35% total.
- I don't see how you can lose on Oracle, most times I delay it 10 turns.
You get FREE philo from GL's free tech.
You are the world's first/second/third (over 12+ civs) to reach classical if you pop GL and Calendar is done in the while.
- Pyramids is a no-no most of the times, but there are many games where I've seen Pyramids available in the build list till medieval.
Infact as I said in the guide I don't build them but the chance to build them aren't bad if one wants to attempt.
- NC on first town is pretty common in most deity strategies.

To all other criticism, as I said in the opener, I perfectly know this is not the cookie cutter common strat.
But it works wonders, it's fun, it's safe and this is what matters in the end.
There isn't just one way to win in Civ V, nor you have to use/like mine.
I personally don't like the cookie cutter strat either, so it goes both ways.
Let's leave it at it.

And there is no need for "geniuses" to beat deity really.
AI in this game is very limited, exploitable and predictable, once you play a hundred of games you perfectly know what will happen in a game and how to turn everything in your favor.

 

[krozman]

1. Maybe if I don't create a military at all i'll get lucky and not get attacked by the AI, if you do just reroll.
2. Maybe i'll start on a hill/river/next to mountain each time, if not just reroll.
3. I must get a culture ruin and population ruin, if not just reroll.

Deity strategies are not based upon rerolling to get a perfect city or lucky situation, then (and only then apparently) do you get GL 70% of the time. They're based on what works on "most" map situations.

Also remember, that anytime you adjust a setting you are giving yourself an advantage. I.e. marathon speed, raging barbs. The more advantages you give yourself, the more you water down the sweetness of the deity victory.

Other than automating workers (which you should stop doing after chieftain skill level) this guide might work until King, but after that it's laughable.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

This might be what works for you/don't work for others, but I think it's put together so well, and answers so many questions (at least for me) that it should be a sticky. It's hard for me to come up with specific questions, as a complete beginner. This will help a bunch.

Do you have any videos with commentary?

As a complete beginner you should try this guide to see if it has merits. It probably wont get much traction here until he posts some videos about it or someone else posts their video results of it working.

In general, many people are skeptical of guides from someone brand new to the forums. And it's generally better to trust guides from someone with an established reputation or presence on these forums, especially backed up with evidence (like videos in Tabarnak's 4-City Tradition thread).

 

[Falconiano]

I don't think this general strategy works. I'll leave it to the more experienced players to give a thorough critique, but I also just wanted to point out a few inconsistencies.

First, you mention that reloading past saves does a disservice to yourself, but then you explicitly advocate rerolling until you get the starting Capital location that you describe. I don't understand how you can take both positions.

A bad start is not a player mistake, that is a purely RNG-dependant event.
Failing to see an attack coming on the other hand is player's fault for lack of spotting and scouting.

Restarting the initial seed and "undoing a mistake" are diametrically different things.

Then again, you own the game you set your standards, I just suggest to not reload in order to become better but I'm not forcing anyone to do so.

You mention that you need to have a spotter 5-tiles away from your border cities, but then you fail to mention what (if anything) you can do when a surprise attack comes. This on Marathon speed, mind you, where you can't change your build orders in time.

I actual did.
There is a paragraph regarding war, and it explains how to defend against the AI attacks.

You list the G-Lib as a Must Wonder, then you go on to suggest Pyramids in certain games, then further put the Oracle as a must. I doubt all these Wonders are possible in the same game on Diety, but even if they were, it would be OCC until at least turn 120 w/ Tradition and w/o buying Settlers. If you're buying Settlers, you need to say how and when. Otherwise, that's inconsistent with the existence of advice on how to build and defend "border cities". In fact, you explicitly say that you don't expand until NC is built in Capital (on top of all these Wonders), but then you show a Screenshot of a border city defended by 2 Legion and 2 CB's. Legion are certainly outdated by the time you research Iron Working in your chosen tech-path, and likely CB's are as well by T120'ish when you get around to expanding.

I can't tell you when/how to buy/produce settlers because that is entirely map-dependant.
You could find plenty of CS/sell lots of embassies/clear camps and get money, or you could be poor.
You could have a plethora of hammers or few.

I give advices that work in all games, or specify if there is a chance of failure, but those kind of things are way too RNG-dependant to give specific advice.

Given that you're not expanding until NC is done, and you're stealing Workers for all CS's, why build Pyramids? Wonder Spam?

This is the second time I'm asked this and I'm starting to wonder (pun intended ) if you actually read the guide.
I specifically said the Pyramids are not necessary. But to go for it if hammers are plentyful.
Perhaps my English is rusty but I believe that means you don't build Pyramids unless you have excessive production.

Circus Maximus is not a World Wonder. You said you'd beat the AI to it all the time because of how it expands, but you're never locked out of it because it's a National Wonder.

Oh, good point on that. That was an oversight.

You say that City States are most useful as a Worker factory. Beyond that issue being highly debatable in your suggested OCC Wonder-spam game, you don't mention where you're getting units beyond the initial Warrior to steal these Workers. Your Build Order is very cramped for this to be any more than a mid-game ploy, at which point I'm not sure it matters.

That is how I deal with City States, yeah.
Worker factories, quick smiles in a pinch.
If you deal with them differently, that's fine with me.

As for units I buy them all soon and upgrade them, except navy that I capture with Corsair.

One substantive point. I have to disagree that kill melee first is a good strategy. It's definitely not with the defensive setup you've screenshotted here. Leaving Ranged alone, you lose the city if one Warrior gets next to it and survives for a single turn. Meanwhile, the only function being served by the fortified Legions here is to limit the number of squares adjacent to your city and available to AI melee. The best in this situation, and most other situations, is to eliminate Seige first, then Ranged, while letting two melee break their backs trying to attack the city over the river. There's not enough space for just melee to take down the city without support.

I'm suspicious about whether this guide is rooted in proven, consistent play at the Diety level.

It's quite disappointing to be accused of such after I bothered to write a page of stuff just to help people who are struggling on Prince.
Maybe it's not clear but I'm not here to tell Deity players how to play, if they play Deity already there is no need to tell anything to them I believe.
I'm giving beginners a failsafe way of dealing with Deity.

But nonetheless, here are some screens from my last game this afternoon.
I'm just in renaissance and AI has zero chances already.
And I used exactly this very strat.

Here is a screen of my wonders: http://i.imgur.com/e6LNCiV.jpg

Admittedly Chichen is out of sheer luck, most times they get it first.
And Big Ben is from GE (first time I finally pulled off a Big Ben in like 8 games).
Italian language, but you should recognize the icons.

Proof of deity: http://i.imgur.com/tELUWe0.jpg

"Divinità" means Deity in Italian.

Here is the general situation: http://i.imgur.com/W1xKCn9.jpg

- Nap begged peace for all his money after losing all his UUs and like 12 trebs to the city you just criticized. He's now being beaten to death by Spain who took advantage of the fact I wiped all of his units.

- Isa lost 8 ships in a row (half joined my side but I lost them to Dario's naval trap) and I razed two of her cities with navy.

- as for Dario, robbed him off 6k in total, now going to abuse him to level my navy.

- Alex stopped bothering me long ago after wiping off his first army in ancient days, he's now begging friendships and possibly getting rolled by Dario.

- Attila, I let him settle there on purpose. He will send workers to that city from his lands, and that means a constant flow of slaves for me, let alone the ones I can return to other civs.

+100 gpt from just peace treaties and the plethora of trades I have up with faraway civs.

Admittedly, my culture-per-turn is pathetic. That is my weakness. I give you that.
Infact you don't see it mentioned in the guide because that is something I just can't fit in my scheme.

Still...
It's renaissance, I have impenetrable defenses, +1 range double shot units, good cities, close to AI with tech.
I'm basically just procastrinating until Radar then Bomber+Paratroop the entire world, as usual.
If you're so skeptical, I'll post post-Radar screenshots with the whole Europe painted in red.
Give me two days or so.

And to be completely honest sir...
If I can do this with Rome which is a crappy civ let's say it, you can do it much easier with the cookie cutter China brain-dead autowin UA.
Reason I play Rome is because China plays have bored me and well, I'm Italian so there is a bit of nostalgia there admittedly.

Again I don't care if other people soiled other strategies, good for them.
But if something works, it's valid. Even if it's not what everyone does.

 

[Falconiano]

As a complete beginner you should try this guide to see if it has merits. It probably wont get much traction here until he posts some videos about it or someone else posts their video results of it working.

In general, many people are skeptical of guides from someone brand new to the forums. And it's generally better to trust guides from someone with an established reputation or presence on these forums, especially backed up with evidence (like videos in Tabarnak's 4-City Tradition thread).

Funny thing, I've definitely been on this forum before, I just happen to forget my login data for sites all the times so I just make a new account.
I probably even made mods for Civ IV, I recall doing a no-gunpowder medieval mod back in the days.
You look in any forum related to HoMM, TW, CoH, AoM... pretty much any strategy game, there is Falcon/Raven-something and that's me, I make mods for all strategy games, play them on hardest modes and make guides, and usually make AI mods (for TW and RTS games at least).
To be blunt Civ 5 isn't very hard at its hardest when compared to some of the aforementioned.

In general though, I believe one should value facts instead of judging by the source.
Just try it.
I know, the standards have changed with time, but sadly at my age I don't really have the time to put down videos or let's plays or whatever time-consuming things you guys do these days.
I posted some shots, will post more later as I have time to finish that game, if need be.

I miss when you posted something and people just went to try it and report back, now it seems I need 10gb of spreadsheets, videos, witnesses and 8000 posts just to tell others how I play my videogame.
Eek.

But I accept that, really. I'll post more shots and see what else I can do!

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

@Falconiano: A couple things missing are things like playing with 12-20 Civs. i see it mentioned in your religion section but that kind of setting really alters a lot of typical assumptions when assessing a guide. most guides in this sub-forum are generally catered to standard settings, standard speed (yours is definitely on a slower speed). it would help (particularly to the beginners you are trying to reach) to maybe put those details the beginning of the thread.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Funny thing, I've definitely been on this forum before, I just happen to forget my login data for sites all the times so I just make a new account.

you should see a mod/admin about this. they frown on multiple accounts but they will merge this one with the old one if you ask them too.

In general though, I believe one should value facts instead of judging by the source.
Just try it.
I know, the standards have changed with time, but sadly at my age I don't really have the time to put down videos or let's plays or whatever time-consuming things you guys do these days.
I posted some shots, will post more later as I have time to finish that game, if need be.

I miss when you posted something and people just went to try it and report back, now it seems I need 10gb of spreadsheets, videos, witnesses and 8000 posts just to tell others how I play my videogame.
Eek.

But I accept that, really. I'll post more shots and see what else I can do!

this just goes to credibility. saying a guide isn't credible isn't calling the poster a liar or saying it can't be credible, just that evidence isnt presented. Reputation can supplant evidence and vice versa but I only brought it up to let the beginners know what they might be reading, not to accuse anyone of improper guides.

you dont need a ridiculous amount of evidence either (i get that it was hyperbole, btw) but some helps. thanks for agreeing to post more shots, that will help your cause in a forum skeptical of such things from the 'established' members.

 

[livsbrand]

You're right! I've never seen the ai snatch Circus Maximus away from me! 100% safe! Thank you so much!

 

[Browd]

Some of the screenies look wonky to me. The "current situation" jpg has Rome with what looks like Persia's colors, rather than Roman purple (the minimap is equally odd, with Rome's territory in red and several capitals to the East bearing what looks like Roman purple). Also, might be an peculiarity of the Italian version of the game, but the proof of Deity screenie doesn't have the typical DLC notation above the civ's symbol.

Anyway, I would be curious to browse your save. Since you have a factory in your capital and are building public schools in various cities, you're at least two techs into the Industrial, rather than Renaissance, which, as I translate Marathon to Standard (roughly 3x) means you got into Industrial at the Standard equivalent of turn 175-185, which is usually a fair bit after one or more Deity AI have hit Industrial. How many other AI are in Industrial?

Also, Marathon is usually slow enough that you can explore the world by now, but you've explored very little, which I usually make a priority. You do say you don't use CSs for their bonuses (just as worker factories), so maybe that is why you haven't bothered to explore more thoroughly. I would also be interested in seeing what terms you got through the game in trades with the AI, peace treaties, etc.

 

[Justice1337]

Well, what I said is that I doubt this guide is backed by proven, consistent play at Diety.

Proven means that you take the same exact start, reroll using the same strategy multiple times, use different strategies a few times each as well, then compare results in such a way that shows that certain decisions had certain effects, positive and negative. The community does this in aggregate through Diety challenges, etc, and players do this often though LP's by trying to beat their previous turn times, etc. Proven does not mean that you won a game at Diety and showed a Screenshot.

Consistent means that you can perform a strategy from any start regardless of conditions and settings, or alternatively, that you have sub-strategies for how to respond under this variety of constraints. An opening strategy will have a very precise level of detail as a result of being consistent. A strategy is not consistent if it requires rerolling to get an ideal start, or if it has no sub-strategies for conditions outside your control (like Wonder beats).


Without being proven and consistent, a strategy might serve a particular goal, it's just that the goal necessarily cannot be consistent, winning play. A strategy might have the goal of allowing a one-time win on non-standard conditions at the Diety level, provided enough rerolls. For that goal, a lot of strategies will work. A strategy might also, theoretically, have some goal other than winning. My goal might be to cover the entire map with Scout units. For that goal, a lot of strategies might work as well.

But if the goal is anything other than consistent, winning play, the strategy will not get a lot of traction. The ability to win consistently might not be the goal of every player out there, but it is certainly the reason that communities such as these coalesce.

 

[Falconiano]

@Falconiano: A couple things missing are things like playing with 12-20 Civs. i see it mentioned in your religion section but that kind of setting really alters a lot of typical assumptions when assessing a guide. most guides in this sub-forum are generally catered to standard settings, standard speed (yours is definitely on a slower speed). it would help (particularly to the beginners you are trying to reach) to maybe put those details the beginning of the thread.

Good point, I updated the first post with the info on the opener.

 

[Buccaneer]

Automated workers, city governor and no scouts... This day is getting better and better.

You took the words right out of my mouth - and I would add marathon speed and stealing workers. Ugh.

 

[Falconiano]

Well, what I said is that I doubt this guide is backed by proven, consistent play at Diety.

Proven means that you take the same exact start, reroll using the same strategy multiple times, use different strategies a few times each as well, then compare results in such a way that shows that certain decisions had certain effects, positive and negative. The community does this in aggregate through Diety challenges, etc, and players do this often though LP's by trying to beat their previous turn times, etc. Proven does not mean that you won a game at Diety and showed a Screenshot.

Consistent means that you can perform a strategy from any start regardless of conditions and settings, or alternatively, that you have sub-strategies for how to respond under this variety of constraints. An opening strategy will have a very precise level of detail as a result of being consistent. A strategy is not consistent if it requires rerolling to get an ideal start, or if it has no sub-strategies for conditions outside your control (like Wonder beats).


Without being proven and consistent, a strategy might serve a particular goal, it's just that the goal necessarily cannot be consistent, winning play. A strategy might have the goal of allowing a one-time win on non-standard conditions at the Diety level, provided enough rerolls. For that goal, a lot of strategies will work. A strategy might also, theoretically, have some goal other than winning. My goal might be to cover the entire map with Scout units. For that goal, a lot of strategies might work as well.

But if the goal is anything other than consistent, winning play, the strategy will not get a lot of traction. The ability to win consistently might not be the goal of every player out there, but it is certainly the reason that communities such as these coalesce.

I've been playing with this strategy since I started playing Deity several months ago (I elaborated this during my Immortal games).
That's probably hundreds of deity games worth, all on Europe and Pangea.
The only few failures have been cases where I've been early-rushed by 4 civs - and I doubt any method can effectively counter that specific situation - although I've become much better at countering early rushes now.
That fits the definition of proven and consistent - at least when using Epic/Marathon speed and those 2 maps that is.

Also, the starting location setting is quite flexible.
Since this guide was aimed to pre-Deity players, I prefer to give them a good start rather than letting them settle in jungle glasslands.
Once they learned with a good start, they can easily do the same on different starts too.
Learning is a gradual process that requires gradual difficulty increase.

 

[BrokTheFanatic]

This seems to me to be all about marathon and raging barbs. You can really exploit the barbarian game design for lots of gold, culture and upgraded units at marathon speed.

I don't think one should play with barbarians at epic or marathon, I even think it is lame at standard. Barbarians are very exploitable.

@OP - you made a thread asking how to make deity tougher and I replied with "great plains, no barbs,... some other stuff". Did you ever try that?

-------------------------------
Anyways, overall the guide is decent but really stress that it is for marathon speeds. I like epic and marathon speed but I also impose rules that keep me from abusing game mechanics that are bolstered by the greater number of turns.

Finally, there are oddities that make me wonder if we are playing the same versions. I'll just leave it at that.

So, if you want to impress, just grab some diety challenge (any of em, easy, medium, hard) off these forums and show your strategy and tactics work by winning and posting screenshots or videos. That would be cool.

 

[adwcta]

So, what OP is saying is that he has not tested this strategy out on standard settings.

That seems fair. I believe him.