Gun Control, who needs it?

Originally posted by rmsharpe
What's wrong with a gun if it's in the hands of a RESPONSIBLE person? That's a point that is never emphasized by anti-gun activism.

There's no need for further gun legislation...all it is, is simply a waste of paper by our representative government, because the current laws that we have are not being enforced by arms dealers, etc.

The crackdown on arms going to criminals isn't going to be from within, it's from the sources abroad that are bringing in the weapons.

Also, in my opinion, you need to crack down on illegal drugs (marijuana, cocaine, heroin, etc.) before violent crimes decrease. It's proven in studies over and over again -- if you live in a community with a high drug use rate, you'd better hit the ground every time you see a black sedan drive by.

Even if a responsible person owns a gun, that will make the chances of a fatality much higher for everyone living within the household. If there is a domestic dispute between husband and wife, then there will be a chance of one of them using the weapon. And the children may use the gun or it may be used on them. Even reasonable people act unreasonably under extreme or emotional circumstances.

As for illegal drugs, the problem lies with the drug laws. Right now we have a drug problem AND a drug law problem in this country. We have been cracking down on drugs since the 80s with the so-called "War on Drugs". We now have more nonviolent drug offenders in prison then ever before, and most of them are only in for possession. We are not catching the kingpins or producers of drugs - we are catching the low-level dealers or users. And when a dealer is caught, someone else will take his place and deal in his area - it is called the "replacement effect".

The poor are dealing in drugs because it is the only way for them to make a living. The potential profits on the black market are huge. And because of the harsh drug laws, if these people are caught then it breaks up their family and brands them as a criminal. So when they out of prison finally, they would have n choice but to go back to drugs because they have no other skills and have ben associating with criminals in prison.

Why should the government tell us what is good for us and what isn't? Millions of people use drugs everyday - caffiene, alcohol, nicotine - yet they are NOT criminals. But when someone smokes a joint or snorts some coke, they are. Marijuana has even been proven to have medicinal benefits. I know a number of people who do or have done cocaine and they are fine. But that is not the issue here. The issue is that the government should have no right to infract on my personal habits. I should be allowed to do whatever I want, no matter how dangerous to myself, as long as I am not hurting anyone else.

The truth is that the government uses the drug laws as a way to keep the poor and lower class from gaining power. With current drug laws, those nonviolent drug offenders are branded as criminals, and therefore put in the same class as other, violent, dangerous criminals such as robbers, rapists, and murderers. The public sees a criminal as a criminal, sometimes blurring the lines between what they were actually convicted of. Not only this but it also functions as a way to divide poor whites and poor minorities, because minorities are primarily the ones convicted of these offenses (which is strange considering whites are the more likely drug user of all illegal drugs except heroin).
 
Just stepping into this discussion.

First of all, statistics aren't relevant to me. I have my own particular life and situation, as does everyone else, which statistics quite frankly cannot shed good light on. I do not own a gun, but I may think about buying one if, say, I start getting death threats, some ex-lover starts "stalking" me (and yes, men too can be victims of stalkers), I get mugged and realize that it could likely happen again, or I see someone "casing" my apartment.... But either way, I would buy it in the extreme hope that I would never have to actually pull the trigger. It would be merely a precaution. As they say in the Boy Scouts, "be prepared".... I certainly wouldn't commit any crimes with it.

I suppose I could also learn aikido (the martial art most useful for disarming opponents), and I have actually thought of doing just that. But if I were elderly or in a wheelchair, that wouldn't be as feasible. Plus, I would have less chance if I had a knife against a knife, fists against fists, etc., than I would gun against gun. There is a reason guns were called a "great equalizer"--in that the resolution of violent confrontations no longer depended so much on physical strength or agility.

As for poverty being solely to blame for crime, that is almost laughable. Look at some third-world countries like Turkey. The streets of Istanbul are supposedly some of the safest in the world (I had an uncle who spent a lot of time there once), despite there being more poverty than in Europe or the US. The reason for the safety is probably the VERY harsh prison conditions that the people know they will face if they do violence. Here in the US, many violent criminals laugh and boast about how easy they "do time". I say, at the VERY LEAST make all inmates serve their time in solitude (so that criminal techniques can't be shared, bigger criminals can't exploit littler ones on a "pecking order", no illegal business can be done, etc.). Better yet though, make them work to earn their room and board. And certainly don't give them cable TV. Have a library so they can educate themselves and find positive inspirations, sure, but don't give them entertainment. Violent crime is not to be tolerated--so society MUST make this VERY clear. I don't care if you're poor, that is NO excuse to do harm to or kill a fellow human being. And poor people can still understand right from wrong as good as anyone else.

I submit that this approach will not only do more to reduce violent crime than gun control ever could, it will also likely reduce the demand for guns from people who feel they need them now for protection, hence reducing firearms in society, just like the gun control people want!

Plus, let's end the futile "war on drugs", which is probably to blame for most of society's violence anyway--just as Prohibition of alcohol once was....
 
As for poverty being solely to blame for crime, that is almost laughable. Look at some third-world countries like Turkey.
Turkey? Safe? Only last year two Leeds United football fans were stabbed while sitting outside a cafe having a coffee. Why were they stabbed? because they were simply Leeds United fans. I know that England has a history of football-related violence but I cannot even imagine this happening in modern-day London. Also poverty DOES create crime. If you measure people in the third world but your first world standards then everyone is poor. However if you measure poverty in third world standards then there are not nearly as many. $1 dollar a day may seem the poorest of the poor. However you must remember that goods are a lot cheaper and a lot of people actually grown their own food. Sure they are poor but the difference between themselves and the rich is not so clearly defined and recognisable. If you live in a major US city then you can travel from the poor areas to the richer areas and the difference is clearly noticable. It is all relative.

To say that poor people should know the difference between right and wrong is completely unneccessary. I ask you to live in the poorest place in America and try and live a completely saintly life. Your family is dying because you can't afford to feed them, you cannot afford medical care and no-one will employ you. What do you do? You survive, anyway possible.
 
Originally posted by allan

As for poverty being solely to blame for crime, that is almost laughable.

Gee, Allan, I looked and I can't see where anybody said anything about poverty being the sole reason for crime. That would be laughable.

What would also be laughable is for someone to say that poverty has nothing to do with crime. Because it obviously does.

People that complain about crime and then complain about efforts to reduce poverty are just plain dumb....they just don't know it.

I'll just repeat.

As a society, we reap what we sow. Like it or not.
 
Originally posted by VoodooAce


People that complain about crime and then complain about efforts to reduce poverty are just plain dumb....they just don't know it.

I'll just repeat.

As a society, we reap what we sow. Like it or not.

I agree 100%.

We have a silly right-wing party governing my province right know, who touted themselves as the "Common Sense Revolution"

Their policies are full of contradictions like you noted above, there's very little common sense in it at all.
 
"Sure they are poor but the difference between themselves and the rich is not so clearly defined and recognisable. If you live in a major US city then you can travel from the poor areas to the richer areas and the difference is clearly noticable. It is all relative."

Actually, there is a lot greater degree of social stratification in third world countries. Take for instance Guatemala, where I spent a year. About 1% of the people there control around 80% of the wealth, according to statistics quoted me. What I actually saw was a few VERY wealthy families, LOTS of dirt poor people who survived in conditions worse than people probably lived even 200 years ago in the US (no running water or electricity, lots of disease, life expectancy in the 40s or 50s, etc.--plus some very debilitating discrimination in the cities, especially for the indigenous "indios shucos" (translates as "filthy indians" in Guatemalan slang Spanish)), and a small (but yes, growing) middle class. Believe me, *I* knew when I was in the rich or poor part of town.

I don't exactly know how it is for Turkey (I'd have to ask my uncle what exactly he observed there), but I also know that the streets of Guatemalan cities were relatively safe compared to the streets of many US cities. There may be more "petty" crime, but much less brutal violence (although there is some--but put it this way, one foreign woman gets raped and it's BIG news). And I've heard enough about Guatemalan prisons to know I would definitely not want to be put in one.

"To say that poor people should know the difference between right and wrong is completely unneccessary. I ask you to live in the poorest place in America and try and live a completely saintly life. Your family is dying because you can't afford to feed them, you cannot afford medical care and no-one will employ you. What do you do? You survive, anyway possible."

I am of the opinion that stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family is not a crime. Stealing a whole truckload of loaves so to speak though, is. And doing violence to people? I'm sorry, but there is never an excuse for that.

I've been homeless before, btw. Lived two months in my car after my girlfriend threw me out. Part of it was by choice, I could have lived with family in the same town if I'd wanted to, but I had to get out of that town (too many bad vibes there--I won't get into it), so I went to a larger town to work and claw my way back to a life. It was an interesting experience, but I never once robbed anyone. I got a job cleaning carpets and in two months had the money to lay down for a basic apartment. Not saying that every homeless person who wants better can do what I did, but I will say that most people in poverty ARE honest people who have moral standards in many cases higher than the average rich person. A few do not. So do we blame poverty in those cases, or blame the individual who doesn't live up to the standards of most of his peers in the same boat he's in? I'd say the latter--and so would most of his peers, probably.

We want to live in a world with less violence. The only way to do that is to make the consequences for that completely unacceptable. People are responsible for their own actions--if they want to remain free anyway.
 
"People that complain about crime and then complain about efforts to reduce poverty are just plain dumb....they just don't know it."

It's a question of whether the methods spoken about actually REDUCE poverty. We've had a "War on Poverty" for 40 years, and it has done about as much as the "War on Drugs", lol.... As for more extreme forms of socialism, these are very debatable too, and I would be glad to join in a thread to debate them once again (like I haven't before!).... But PLEASE don't come to the conclusion that people who question the effectiveness of so-called "efforts to reduce poverty" aren't concerned about poverty. Most likely, they are more concerned that their tax money is going down a bureaucratic rathole and doing NOTHING for poverty. "Intentions" mean NOTHING, results mean EVERYTHING. At least to most people with any sense....
 
Originally posted by ApocalypseKurtz
(..)the way to reduce crime is to create decent-paying jobs for the poor. These people have the highest offense rate because they have nothing to lose. For some, prison is better then living outside because at least they get food and a place to live. We need to reduce the gap between wealthy and poor, improve education (especially in urban areas), and provide government assistance for those who cannot find work. It would also help to repeal at least some of the current drug laws as well as other victimless crimes.(..)

:goodjob:
 
Originally posted by allan
[BIt's a question of whether the methods spoken about actually REDUCE poverty. We've had a "War on Poverty" for 40 years, and it has done about as much as the "War on Drugs", lol.... As for more extreme forms of socialism, these are very debatable too, and I would be glad to join in a thread to debate them once again (like I haven't before!)....[/B]

Do you by extreme forms of socialism mean like Europe? The war on the poor has been very succesful in Western Europe, thanks to a more socialist apporach to capitalism. Wouldn´t it be time to take an entirely new approach in the USA if you for 40 years have been fighting this war on the poor, and still keep failing?
 
Originally posted by VoodooAce


Exactly.

Its always the same people that resent efforts to reduce poverty that belong to the 'tough on crime' group.

And its the same people that fight any efforts to make it more difficult for the masses to arm themselves. :confused:


Thanks for the pigeon-holing. I don't resent efforts to reduce poverty and I do not fight all efforts to make it more difficult for the masses to arm themselves.

Originally posted by ApocalyspeKurtz

Why should the government tell us what is good for us and what isn't? Millions of people use drugs everyday - caffiene, alcohol, nicotine - yet they are NOT criminals. But when someone smokes a joint or snorts some coke, they are. Marijuana has even been proven to have medicinal benefits. I know a number of people who do or have done cocaine and they are fine. But that is not the issue here. The issue is that the government should have no right to infract on my personal habits. I should be allowed to do whatever I want, no matter how dangerous to myself, as long as I am not hurting anyone else.

I know a number of people who own and use guns and they are fine, and inflict no harm on others. By this arguement the government shouldn't be able to tell us what to do on guns.

I disagree with this, and beleive that that the government should have gun legisislation as well as drug legislation. I'll even go so far as to say that both need changed (Drug more than gun IMO).

Our War on Drugs and our War on Poverty are both a joke. What the US really needs, and I will push for if you send me to Washington ;) , is a national mission to reform and improve our education system. This is the root of the solution for all the problems that most vex us. Poverty and crime are just the top of the list. If I am elected I will blatantly plagerize Kennedy's moon speach and make it a national mission to make the system work. ;)

Originally posted by MrPresident

Besides from the whole death penalty issue

Overall, I don't think that the death penalty fits within this discussion. I know it is a hot button for many Europeans, but it is not a widespread sentance, or occurance, even in Texas. I personally have changed my stance on it and am against it, but regardless, it has little to do with deterance on the scale we are talking about in its current form (which is partially why I am against it).

To those that have disagreed with my statements about prisons, should I take it that you beleive that they are fine? Perhaps they are not a major factor in our current problems, but I believe that they are not fine, and do play a role. If it turns out not to be a significant role, reforming them to be places of puishment / reform instead of criminal U's is still a worthwhile goal.

Just so some of you know, I just recently signed a petition to place a measure on the balot giving first time drug offenders mandatory rehab instead of jail time. I don't want to sound like I am tooting my own horn so to speak, but I am not ignorant of the fact that sentances should reform as well as punish.
 
Originally posted by knowltok2

Thanks for the pigeon-holing. I don't resent efforts to reduce poverty and I do not fight all efforts to make it more difficult for the masses to arm themselves.

Ok, ok. I shouldn't have said always, I guess.

How about 'overwhelming majority'? The overwhelming majority of the 'tough on crime/war on crime' crowd?

One should never say 'All' I suppose.

My point still stands, however, and its the overwhelming majority of these people that insist on cutting of their nose to spite their face.
 
Originally posted by VoodooAce


Ok, ok. I shouldn't have said always, I guess.

How about 'overwhelming majority'? The overwhelming majority of the 'tough on crime/war on crime' crowd?

One should never say 'All' I suppose.

My point still stands, however, and its the overwhelming majority of these people that insist on cutting of their nose to spite their face.

I disagree with that statement as well, but I'm not going to go to any effort to try and dig up statistics to disprove it. These are broad terms you are using to paint a lot of people. "resent efforts to reduce poverty" What does that mean? Who do you include in this category? "fight any efforts," another broad term. Not everyone who believes in the right to possess weapons is against waiting periods, automatic weapon bans, or back ground checks. I don't believe that even a "vast majority" feel that way.
 
Originally posted by knowltok2


I disagree with that statement as well, but I'm not going to go to any effort to try and dig up statistics to disprove it. These are broad terms you are using to paint a lot of people. "resent efforts to reduce poverty" What does that mean? Who do you include in this category? "fight any efforts," another broad term. Not everyone who believes in the right to possess weapons is against waiting periods, automatic weapon bans, or back ground checks. I don't believe that even a "vast majority" feel that way.

Knowltok, I said right there in the post you quoted that 'Everybody' is too broad a term, didn't I? How else can I qualify that when I say most or the majority, I'm talking most or the majority and NOT all. That was the whole point of my last post, lol.

The American conservative, GENERALLY SPEAKING (cool?), considers themselves 'tough on crime' and liberals weak on crime, right? Yes, in fact, most do. Not all....most.

Also generally speaking, American conservatives ARE against most social programs. Welfare, affirmative action, anything that will use taxpayer money.... Not all feel this way, most.

And, lastly, MOST conservatives GENERALLY are against any kind of gun conrol. Not all feel this way, but most do.

Now, once again, as I tried to make clear in my last post, I'm not saying all of the people that believe one of the above, believe in the other two.

BUT, I would bet that the majority of conservatives in America that considers themselves 'tough on crime' (lol) fall into the other two groups.
And most of those that fall into the 'no gun control' and 'don't spend my tax money on social programs' probably fall into the other two as well. MOST and not ALL.

Most (not all, but the majority) fail to see the utter lack of logic in their lines of thinking.
 
That being said, I'm sure you understand full well what I'm getting at, Knowltok. Now, rather than nit-picking or arguing semantics, what about my points?

Do you not believe that MOST conservatives believe as I said on all three points????

Do you not see the lack of logic in it?
 
Originally posted by VoodooAce
That being said, I'm sure you understand full well what I'm getting at, Knowltok. Now, rather than nit-picking or arguing semantics, what about my points?

Do you not believe that MOST conservatives believe as I said on all three points????

Do you not see the lack of logic in it?

To an extent. However, just because someone may want less Federal government involvement in social programs does not necessarily mean that they "resent efforts to reduce poverty." I won't argue that some Conservatives do fit neatly into the box you have constructed, but I think you are going overboard in your clasifications. Someone who opposes someone else who advocates the banning of guns is not automatically against all gun control. I don't think that most conservatives want current restrictions lifted. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't believe that most conservatives want automatic weapons readily availble to anyone who wants to purchase them. Some might, but not most.

I think a large amount of the problems come from people who are not willing to compromise. Someone who calls for the banning of all guns does not come across as the compromising type. It seems understandable to me that people who do not want all guns banned would try and oppose these people's efforts. It is unfortunate, because the issue has polarized around the two extremes, when in reality, I'd say the (estimating) 80% of the people in the middle would be more than willing to compromise on sensible gun control that is limiting, but not a total ban.

I happen to think the same is true on abortion as well, but that is another issue, though one with many parrallels.
 
Voodoo, as I said, most poor people have moral standards that prevent them from stealing, armed robbery, or other violence. Probably higher moral standards overall (this is merely a subjective observation of people, nothing scientific about it). The poor who commit crimes are a small minority among their class peers. And their peers don't excuse their behavior. So why do others, even partially, excuse their acts as "consequences of poverty"?

Middle-class and rich people also do crimes--professional burglars, hit men, extortion racketeers, and organized criminals in general are NOT poor. And so-called "white collar" criminals are probably the most destructive to society overall (besides those who take lives)--they should receive the same punishments as anyone who steals, proportional to how much they steal, too, btw.

So, crime isn't a "poverty" thing. It is a MORAL thing. When you are poor, you don't lose morals--in fact, some would probably argue that some people are poor BECAUSE they have strong morals and have always done everything ethically but haven't had the same skill or luck, but refused to backstab anyone to help themselves. Whatever, blaming crime on poverty is a slap in the face of millions of honest poor people who stuck by their moral standards in thick and thin. Ask a religious black elderly grandmother on food stamps what she thinks of violent thugs on her street.... She wishes they would listen to sound moral guidance. And she is right.

My point stands--if we are in fact free people, then we take responsibility for our actions. It is as simple as that. Those who do violence to others, rich, poor, or in the middle--as well as those who steal the fruits of another's labor--should be punished, not assumed to be victims of circumstance. Because the majority of people in similar circumstances have in fact done the right thing.
 
Ask a religious black elderly grandmother on food stamps what she thinks of violent thugs on her street.
They are probably your grandsons. If crime has nothing to do with poverty example to me why the most dangerous places in the developed world are the poor inner city areas. I live in a middle-class area and I never heard of anyone being mugged. But I ask you would this be the same in say inner London, New York, Toyko, LA? Poverty breeds crime, fact! If you are poor then you have less to lose from turning to crime. The money that can be made is far more tempting to someone bought up in a household always struggling to find the money for food to feed the family. Most children when in adulthood try and avoid the mistakes of their parents (this can lead to different mistakes and occassionly the same ones). If your family was poor then surely you would want to make lots of money to avoid this happening to your children. In poor areas this money can usually be made easiest (and usually only) by crime. Have you ever heard of the poverty trap? The idea that people who are smart enough will pull themselves out of poverty has universally be find to be flawed. A stupid middle-class child has far more chance of success than a intelligent poor child. Think, how much does it cost to go to Harvard or Yale? do you think that only the most intelligent get in? Remember President Bush went to Yale, I wonder if this was anything to do with his family tremedous wealth or was it has amazing intelligence?
 
Allan, in no way am I saying that being poor is a good reason to be a criminal. It doesn't excuse anything, and I've never claimed that it does.

I'm just saying that when we, as a society, allow these perfect conditions for the breeding of crime, we shouldn't be so shocked and surprised when we get it.

Sure, I like to think I'm morally strong enough that I would refrain from committing crimes. I like to think that, but nobody can truly say how they would react if put in that situation.

For one thing, you wouldn't know how you would have been raised. Were you raised by a mother that spent all of her time in the back bedroom with Jody sparking up the crack pipe?

How good are your chances then? How do you view the world and your opportunities? What sort of odds do you give yourself?

Seriously, you see the old man across the street that worked HIS whole life, stayed out of trouble, but has Jack Sh!t because, despite the fact he's worked his whole life, he never made more than minimum wage cleaning toilets.

There are no excuses, but you at least have to understand where its coming from.
 
I think both views are valid on two different levels. Allans view has to be what we use on the individual. Personal responsibility is the cornerstone of our system. However, in aggregate, Voodoo is correct about conditions that foster crime. These need to be addressed as well, because in groups the laws of statistics can come to play, and certain conditions will cause x% more of the population to behave in a certain way.


Well, I just tried to please both sides, I am now putting up my shield to deflect the certain retribution.
 
I've been in "inner cities" of Manila, Bangkok, Rangoon, Guatemala City, Hong Kong, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur, Saigon, and Madras. These places contained some of the most downtrodden people I've ever seen on Earth. Granted some of these cities are in "police states", but some are in democracies with fair (albeit harsh, to Western standards) judicial systems. And muggings do happen on occasion. But I've felt safer in all these places compared to the inner cities of Baltimore, Washington, New York, Chicago, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, St. Louis, New Orleans and yes, even Minneapolis (one of the safer major US cities). I've been mugged once in my life, and that was in Baltimore, where I lived the same amount of time as I did in Guatemala.

But we probably even blow the crime picture in the US way out of proportion--statistically the chances of one being a victim of violent crime anywhere in the US are very very low (I can dig these up if need be). But they're even lower in most of these places I've been in the third world.

But why is there more crime in poor inner cities than elsewhere? One should also ask why there ISN'T a lot of crime in poor rural areas, or even poor small "welfare towns" like Kane, Pennsylvania where I lived for a few years? Poverty may be a small part of the demographic factoring, but there are other parts as well:

a) Gang mentality. Traditionally cities have been more "fend for yourself" places, where, since there are SO MANY people, many semi-transient and therefore not there long enough to establish a good level of trust, the idea of "looking after your neighbor" breaks down. Couple this sometimes harsh anonymity with a past history of harsh racism against certain people (notably the blacks, but also to lesser extent Italians, Irish, Mexicans, Asians, etc.), and these certain people will be lured more easily to the idea of a "gang" to offer mutual protection. Gangs offered this, but they were based on holding power in a given area or community. And in the past not availed easily legal (political) channels to hold this power, they resorted to holding it by illegal means.

These days, the "need" (notice I put this in quotes) for gangs in the US is hardly what the perceived need was when they started. Racism still exists but is relatively rare, and colleges HAVE opened their doors wide to minorities--as have the jobs that follow. And student loans are available to everyone, and financial aid is available to all but the richest prospective students. Not to mention the GI Bill if you choose to join the military. There IS a way out for those who would take it--legislation has done more than enough (some would say, unfairly too much in cases such as "affirmative action", and I agree in principle) to remedy the past situation. The problem is that old ways die hard, and some choose to live by the old patterns. Maybe it's inertia, maybe it's pressure from peers, maybe it's the feel of power from gang life, maybe it's fear of being rejected by old friends if you reject the gang and rise above it. Maybe you're in and you can't get out because they'll come after you. All but the last reason can be overcome though. It's a choice. And right now the choice to be in gangs and do violence is way easier than it should be.

2) Addiction. Especially addiction to drugs VERY high in price because of prohibitions. Generally speaking an addict addicted to such high-priced drugs WILL find himself either in poverty (due to his habit taking over his finances, possible loss of job due to being high on the job or drug tests, etc.), or never getting out of poverty if that's where he started. I propose two things for this: legalization (to bring down the price of these drugs so that people don't feel they have to resort to crime to finance them), and free rehab clinics (paid for by a tax on these drugs). As for mothers neglecting their children for the crack pipe, child neglect is a CRIME--we need to find ways of enforcing this better or more consistantly.

3) Inconsistent police protection. Someone I know reported a burglary IN PROGRESS at his neighbor's house in a "bad" neighborhood in St. Paul, and it took the cops 45 minutes to show up--by which time the burglar was gone. I've heard stories of ridiculously long "10-12" (code for "heading to the scene") times for even cases involving violence before too, all in inner city areas. Go to a wealthy suburb, or even a wealthy area in the city limits, and the service will be prompt.

These three demographic factors probably contribute far more to crime than poverty in and of itself. I agree poverty is something we should fight (I don't tend to agree with the oft-proposed methods though) for many reasons--primarily because it IS a bad thing.

But crime itself can be solved primarily by giving more accountability to the individual for his actions. The consequences aren't good now, but obviously they are not bad enough to deter some determined individuals. In some countries, they are. Of course, we have a phrase "cruel and unusual punishment" describing what punishments we should avoid. But that term is subjective. I would ask the philosophical question: is "an eye for an eye" cruel and unusual? I don't really think it is. If people actually had to suffer the way they made their victims suffer, and this were guaranteed, I can almost guarantee violent crime would not exist (except maybe among the suicidal, or masochistic ;) ), and we'd be at peace in the world. But this is an ideal, and will never happen.

But the next best thing is to make our prisons places EVERYONE wants to avoid at all costs. And of course couple that with more legal emphasis on violent crime versus people putting unauthorized substances in their noses or whatever. The prison-building lobby of course won't like the approach, in that there will probably be prisons shut down for lack of a huge prison population (through both the deterrence of violence and the decriminalization of victimless crimes such as drug use), but that's too bad--mine and my brethren's peace and safety is more important than their concerns.

If we seriously want to curb violence in our society, then we need to send a message that it will not be tolerated anymore, period.

(I see that this has deviated quite a bit from the topic of the thread, but it ties into it. If people own a gun but do no wrong with it, then they should not be punished. People that DO do wrong with it, should. And more severely and consistently, I might add.)
 
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