hah the world is getting worse again

[joespaniel]

Joukov, I think you are both right and wrong about this. The US has already changed the way it deals with terrorism from the east.

Last time (1998 embassy bombings) the US hurled 80 cruise missles at them within days of the attacks.

This time a coalition has been built, including arab states and excluding Isreal (again!). Also much time and effort has gone into assembling evidence, much planning into the operation.

I don't understand your comment on countries the US supports. I don't want to speculate, so could you clarify?

The US was neutral for a long time and it's people had extreme isolationist views. After fighting two world wars and several other conflicts, Americans feel that it's better to stand up against tyranny and evil men before they cause horrible wars and holocausts.

Do you really think Bin Laden is doing this to help Palestinians? Thats a red herring. Do you think he is any better than Hitler, or Stalin?

His goals are to create a empire in the middle east with him at the top. It would be worse than the Nazis and the Communists, for everyone. And with no fear of unleashing a nuclear war.

The United States and its allies would never let a thing like that happen, not just for our own survival, but for the good of all peoples. Especialy the people of the middle east.

And Sweden.

 

[G-Man]

I really don't see what it has to do with the Palestinians. He attacked before the Oslo agreement and after it. Before the intifada and after it began... If you'll listen to his number 2, you'll see that the US's crime was Israel. Not something done by Israel, but Israel. The fact I'm alive makes this man angry. And if he'll destroy Israel? Then what? Do you think they'll stop? He said "the land of Muhhamad". So Spain is a target as well. And so does Portugal. Then India. May he'll add in China... Then he'll probably wanna go to Europe, through Turkey and Albania. Then Australia for not allowing the Afghan refugees to come to it's territory... And ofcource anyone who will support any of these countries should be targeted as well...

 

[amadeus]

There will be a nuclear war, and it will be between India and Pakistan. I'd recommend the United States to build up a Strategic Defense Shield (Ha! Reagan was right, liberals.)

It wouldn't suprise me if Pakistan dropped a nuclear bomb over New Delhi in the next ten years.

 

[G-Man]

If you'll ask me the biggest threat to the US (aside from mass-distruction terrorism) is China. I think in the next 10 years China will invade Taiwan, and the US wouldn't dare to react. Just like in Korea they were afraid of them. I mean, if China will attack the US, what will the US do? Nuke a billion people? Take over China and let them take over the White house and the Congress by demoratic means? Ethnic cleanse entire China? Take over China and not allow any of it's citizens to become an American?

 

[joespaniel]

The US is treaty-bound to stand with Taiwan if it is attacked.

That is the reason China has not invaded yet.

I do not think they are that foolish. However, they managed to steal alot of our nuclear weapony and delivery system designs...

G-Man - You left out "destroy the chinese government and let the citizens replace it with a new democracy" in your list of possibilities. Although that could be wishful thinking.

 

[G-Man]

I dunno... How long will it take to create a democracy this big? And if the US will defend Taiwan won't all the people in China hate the US for supporting the Taiwani rebels?

 

[Ashoka]

For an example, did someone hate the swedish, i d'ont think so because the swedish d'ont interfere with others affairs. So if the U.S continue to act like this, the terrorist will only get worse.

Another reason - perhaps too obvious - the US represents 'western culture' and all the things the Islamists hate -equal rights for women, somewhat democratic governments, freedom of speech - even when it is deemed 'blasphemy' - and freedom of religion.

Sure, the US has some screwed-up foreign policy - but EVERY nation has a beef with some other nation. As history shows, if the US gets involved in a foreign issues, we get blamed. IF the US stays isolationist, we ALSO get blamed.

You would probably never suggest a women who was attacked was 'guilty' because of how she dressed or how she acted. Equally, the US, even though we are guilty of some very bad, self-centered foreign policy, can't be blamed for the actions of these terrorists.

 

[Ashoka]

If you'll ask me the biggest threat to the US (aside from mass-distruction terrorism) is China.

Very astute as always, G. But China has a problem of it's own, similar to the former Soviet Union - it is too big, too diverse. Bedsides Tibet and Manchuria, there are several other areass of China with serious seperatists threats (including Islamic areas near the Afghan border, where al Quida has already caused trouble.)

The PRC government would have to take a step to the right in order to justify incvasion of Taiwan - remember, too many families on the mainland have relatives on the island. This is possibly the real reason why they haven't invaded yet. Such a move to the right threatens to increase the seperatist sentiment in several areas of the mainland. As Maoism continues to loose it's usefullness in uniting the seperate ethnic groups on the mainland, the PRC may have trouble holding things together as they are.

More likely - continued political intimidation of the government in Taipei, resulting in the 'election' (probably manipulated) of a pro-PRC government that results in re-unification. Then, the PRC will have to deal with the Taiwanese population, which will not be inclined to blindly follow orders from Beijing. That's when the violence might start.


Ashoka

 

[G-Man]

Great. I spend hours of trying to think of ways to make the US start another war, because I am, according to juize, a war lover. And here come Ashoka, the voice of reason and destroyes my plans for world domination....

Anyway, from what I know for the last decade of so China has become much stronger, on the expense of strict communism and military control inside the country. If they'll decide to attack Taiwan it will be after they're sure they have full support inside their country. Tibet won't be much of a problem in that. They're buddhist and Al Qaeda is currently being attacked by the US...

 

[joespaniel]

There are no 'Tawani' rebels.

Taiwan is the last vestage of the former (rightful?) government of China, ousted by the communists. Its for that reason mainland China wishes to sweep them under the rug.

For now, US - China relations are actualy the best in a long time, but that always seems to change quick when your dealing with that country.

If they would agree to recognize Taiwan in exchange for some US concession or technology, it would difuse the whole situation.

Ofcourse they could just steal our technology...

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by joespaniel
There are no 'Tawani' rebels.

Taiwan is the last vestage of the former (rightful?) government of China, ousted by the communists. Its for that reason mainland China wishes to sweep them under the rug.

I ment it, ofcource, from China's point of view. Officiali they refer to Taiwan as "the rebel district". They've been rebeling for almost 50 years. The Chineese army just forgot to stop them. Untill 2006 that is....

 

[joespaniel]

Look, you war-monger zionist imperialistic rabble rouser, you had better stop trying to get us into a war with China!

Or next time we have a coalition, we will leave Isreal out of it!

Oh, never mind...

 

[amadeus]

I think the biggest agressor to come around in the next few years will be North Korea. China has too many internal problems to have a serious "war" with the United States.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

"I think the biggest agressor to come around in the next few years will be North Korea. China has too many internal problems to have a serious "war" with the United States."

The Chinese have better things to do. Unless there's a direct threat coming at China (i.e. a large American-dominated army marching right to the borders of China AKA the Korean War and Japanese militarism), they won't really care about what happens on the other side of the world. China is the most isolationist and inward-looking country in history. During the Ming Dynasty, the imperial govt even burned the great ships and shipyards of the Ming navy to enforce an isolationist policy. At present, they are trying to raise the living standards of a one billion plus people.

BTW, I am Chinese but not Mainland Chinese. I am as much of a foreigner in China as any of you guys. But I do wish my ancestral homeland well.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by joespaniel
The US is treaty-bound to stand with Taiwan if it is attacked.

That is the reason China has not invaded yet.

I do not think they are that foolish. However, they managed to steal alot of our nuclear weapony and delivery system designs...

G-Man - You left out "destroy the chinese government and let the citizens replace it with a new democracy" in your list of possibilities. Although that could be wishful thinking.

Time is on China's side. It will be the largest economy in East Asia and a very large economy in the world. Even today, almost all Taiwanese corporations and medium-sized enterprises have large operations in the Mainland. The Taiwanese are one of the biggest foreign investors in China. That's the reason why the Chinese have not invaded yet. You don't invade your business partner esp when history and time are on your side.

Some of you keep harping on the Chinese threat but just exactly what overt aggressive action has the Chinese ever taken (terror bombing, building thousands of nukes, building a blue water navy etc, supporting terrorist groups)? The Chinese are hard-headed practical realists, not religious extremists.

And I think when China turn democratic, there's just as much chance of it turning anti-American and anti-West as the other way around. The Chinese people have centuries of grieviances against the West, beginning with the British drugpushers forcing open the door of China during the Opium War (1842?) for the right to sell opium directly to the Chinese people. It's just plain luck that the Communists rule China. Blame it on the Japanese - if they hadn't come invading in the 30s and 40s and weakened the Nationalists so much, the Communists would never be able to seize power.

 

[joespaniel]

SKM - I don't have any problem with China, and right now, like I said two posts back, US-China relations are doing much better. I was just bantering with the evil isreali warlord spymaster.

To be honest, I would rather see even closer ties. China should be our friend in the 21st century, not a competitor. Same with Russia. But thats a whole other can of worms.

Trade status was a good start, we should keep going. They have to solve their own human rights problems, we shouldn't get involved except to reward positive change.

I am dead-set against forcing domestic policy on foreign nations. It never works. I was in Somolia in 1993 and it blew up in the UNs face. That was a more complex situation, but its in the same ballpark.

Anyway, America needs all the friends it can get. The world is getting smaller. And more dangerous.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Joespaniel, I am merely pointing out different views possible. Don't worry, I am not a rabid pro-Chinese extremist. I am just getting a bit tired of all these "China will be the next great threat" strands.
I still remember in these very same forums all the huha when that US spyplane crashed into China. And all the name-calling, accusations and stuff. That was before the REAL threat occured. Since then, the US govt has become a lot easier to live with.
Sometimes I think Americans just need to have some great nemesis in the world just to justify to themselves and others their continual global role as the world policeman and sole superpower and what. If it's not China, they will surely pick on somebody else.
Like they did with the Soviets. Now that the Soviet Union is gone, so China has no real strategic use for the USA so the Republican far right can pick on it since it's the next closest competitor. I think it's much better in the old days when China and America were allied (sort-of) against the Soviet Union.

 

[joespaniel]

Americans are getting sick of being the policemen of the world too. Theres little support anymore for deploying troops to troublespots. Excluding the ongoing attack on terrorists.

I spoke to a reporter from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal yesterday for an hour about my experiences with the 10th Mountain Division in Somolia. They are supposed to be printing an article on the units history. It didn't come out this morning though. Maybe tomorow.

It realy comes down to economics. We need the global market so sometimes we have to go out and 'police' it up. I would hope that after this, America will become more enlightened in its foriegn affairs, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Yeah, I realize it's hard to be the top dog sometimes esp in these modern times. You simply cannot please everybody. Well, that's the way the world is ........
Anyway I think the Americans are doing a fine job so far. There are Islamic fundamentalists in my home country so I really have an idea what they are like. Idiots all want to go to Afghanistan to defend the country. Apparently they hadn't heard that the terrorists have killed close to 6000 ppl in the US.

 

[Ashoka]

Yeah, I realize it's hard to be the top dog sometimes esp in these modern times. You simply cannot please everybody. Well, that's the way the world is ........

My feeling also. the US get's blamed when we act. We get blamed when we don't act. No matter what action we take, it is portrayed as 'racist' amd 'colonial' by certain factions.

(Funny, I don't recall the US ever having a colony... I guess one could count the areas like the Phillipines that the US occupied - often violently - just after the Spanish-American war. But that did not last very long, and we *certainly* did not move in Americans to displace the people already living there.)

Let's just all hold on tight - -


BTW - IF downtown Chicago gets bombed, my last action will be posting to this board


Ashoka