hah the world is getting worse again

[dreadhead7]

They wouldn't care, anyway. Check this out. I've been hearing that in Indonesia, which has given it's support to the U.S., the extremists have vowed to hunt down Americans and other foreigners. So far, I haven't heard any condemnation, or, for that matter, any response at all from the Indonesian government. So, I suspect that Americans and others will begin to die if the extremists make good their threats. Now, I consider that totally barbaric!! We Americans aren't talking about hunting down Muslims. True, there have been attacks against Muslim Americans, and some have even been killed, but those are isolated events by rabid idiots. Do you know what the world would do to us if we instituted an American "Jihad"?

I don't know what is wrong with these people. We in the United States realize that the Muslim community is very diverse, and that not all of them are extremists. Why can't they realize the same about Americans? We are a very diverse people, and not all of us support the foreign policy that causes the extremists to hate us. They say "Americans" as if we are clones, not realizing or caring that the great majority of Americans have no say in foreign policy, or in matters of government. Though we are a democracy, actually, America is not controlled by the people, but by a few super-rich and powerful folks.

Now, I'm not against my country by any stretch of the imagination, but these extremists need to understand that the very Americans that they will be hunting down are just as innocent as the desperately poor Afghani folks who are simply trying to stay alive, and who want nothing but peace. If they really want to change things, they need to put down their weapons and come to the table with real dialogue. Unfortunately, I think that the chances of that happening are as great as the chance that Osama will wake up one morning, decide that he has been a horrible menace to Humanity, and turn himself over to the Americans. Ha! NOT!!

 

[allan]

And actually, most Americans living in places like Indonesia, teaching English, volunteering in some humanitarian capacity, or simply travelling (as versus being "tourists"--there's a difference) to "expand their world view" or whatever, actually tend to be the type of Americans who ARE tolerant, ARE pacifist generally (whether or not they support current actions against bin Laden), and generally don't support much of the foreign policy our leaders sometimes engage in. So it is quite ironic that they will be targeted.

(But on the other hand, since they ARE generally tolerant people, I suppose religious extremists WOULD hate them.)

You're right dreadhead, take any two random Americans, and they could very likely be as different from each other as any two random HUMANS from anywhere--except for their citizenship of course, and their common knowledge of English (which could vary greatly in ability too). ESPECIALLY when you get right down to deeper things inside a person....

And whatever the cause, the end NEVER justifies the means. And September 11th was an improper means, to make an understatement....

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
I think the biggest agressor to come around in the next few years will be North Korea. China has too many internal problems to have a serious "war" with the United States.

And N. Korea don't have internal problems? Didn't they tell their citizens to eat grass because they don't have any money to buy food? Also, thier enemies are S. Korea, that has a stronger army. And the US aren't afraid of N. Korea.

I'm not sure if the Chineese will actually do anything against the US or it's allies, especially if their growth will be dependent on US efforts. However, in the last decade Americans become very worried about human rights issues, which might hurt the US-China relations.
Ashoka - the American colony is, ofcource, Israel. It doesn't matter that Israelis fought without US support untill the 1970s or that in the beggining the USSR helped us more then Americans did. We're an American colony. Yeah, right.

 

[joespaniel]

Dreadhead - Yor post is an example of people using their brains before they engage the mouth. Well said.

Unfortunately, theres a surplus of ignorance on this planet.

Hopefuly, the talk coming from the militant population in those countries (which is only like 1 or 2 %) is just talk. Propaganda in war is just as important as the actual battles. We have to try to see through it to make up our own minds whats realy going on and is it the right thing.

Obviously I have made up mine, but I am a little nervous about what is coming next. I see several possibilities;

-Terrorist acts yet to come. A big , nobody but they know where, when and what.

-What will the mission of the ground offensive be? Will they get in and out quickly? ( I believe this is a major factor )

-Will the conflict widen and how soon? Who we be the first to openly ally with the Taliban, if anyone?

-What other countries will the US miltary operate in? It sounds certain that the Bush admin is going to attack terrorists elsewhere.
A range of possible targets exist in;

Syria
Iraq
Somolia
Sudan
Indonesia

These five are supposed to have actual terrorist camps and support from the governments.

I have a feeling things will stay under control, for now, if they keep moving forward in the same careful and methodical way.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Dreadhead, just something I would like to add about those militants in Indonesia (and elsewhere). Living somewhat closer to Indonesia than anybody else, I think I can contribute a little something to the discussion.
You see, you can't compare the average Indonesian with the average American. The vast majority of them are not very highly uneducated and many have never even gone to school. And they implicitly trust their religious leaders or teachers or ulama. It's like you would trust your local priest or chaplain etc. Their minds are closed and easily influenced by the people they trust i.e. the ulama or other local leaders. They do not have the benefit of higher education to be able to formulate their own views.
Furthermore, most of this turmoil is believed to be fomented by small Islamic parties and disaffected politicians who are trying to topple the present govt cos they didn't benefit fr the present govt. Which is why the present govt is acting very cautiously so as not to fall into their trap.
Also, these people may have been hired. Indonesia is now even poorer due to the economic recession worldwide and the ineptitude of the former administration. So there're lots of people available for hire for a pittance by disaffected parties.

 

[joespaniel]

"Small islamic groups trying to topple governments they dont like."

That sums up Mr. Bin Laden pretty well too. They must all use the same training manual or something.

 

[Ashoka]

The US *is* going to respond to the issues w/ Indonesia, and fairly quickly.

Abu Saya, an Islamic terrorist group based in Indonesia, has been very active in the southern Philippines. The government in Manila has approved the USA using the former bases in the Philippines for a base of opperations against Abu Saya in the region.

This was a good idea, considering Manila has wanted an excuse to get US military presence back without offending those concerned about Phillipine sovereignty.

(Of course, the base at Subic Bay is still toast due to the Mt. Penetubo eruption - but there are still a couple of good ones left!!)

It might be better for everybody if the US was able to move out of Osaka and to the Phillipines, anyway. Fillipinos are generally more tolerant of American's cultural ignorance ...

Maganda!

Ashoka

 

[allan]

joespaniel: "but I am a little nervous about what is coming next."

Man, I am too.... One thing that concerns me is the question of how secure Pakistan's nukes are. If they get into the wrong hands (pro-Taliban factions), they wouldn't reach the US but they WOULD reach concentrations of ground troops or our huge fleet presently in the Arabian Sea....

One thing: Remember that "fire at 45 degrees" line out of Nostradamus (the REAL but more ambiguous passage, NOT the fake one liberally distributed via e-mails recently)? Well, I don't know what to make of Nostradamus, but I just realized that my home city, where I'm sitting right now (Minneapolis), lies dead on the 45th parallel north. No other major US city does (although Ottawa, Canada, and Belgrade, Serbia are both quite close)--I could be a goner soon! (NYC by the way isn't really even close to 45 degrees north, more like 40--so maybe if Nostro is on to something, he didn't mean New York....)

We may see some scary sh*t.... We ARE cursed to live in "interesting times". God help us all....

 

[joespaniel]

If they nuke Minny, the fallout will land in Wisconsin.

The majority population in Pakistan is not with al-Queda nor the US. I doubt a revolution would succeed there.

I'm not worried about nukes from Pakistan as much as lost Soviet fissionable material. Building a bomb is easy, I could do it with enough money to hire machinists and electricians. The bomb grade plutonium or urainium is the hard part.

I think the bio/chemical threat is more realistic, but I am sick of the media-induced panic about it. They should quit exploiting the fear for the sake of ratings.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

"Abu Saya, an Islamic terrorist group based in Indonesia, has been very active in the southern Philippines. The government in Manila has approved the USA using the former bases in the Philippines for a base of opperations against Abu Saya in the region. "

The Abu Sayyaf is based in Mindanao, the second largest island in the Philippines and in the south where it meets Malaysia and Indonesia. They are more like criminals and kidnappers engaged in kidnapping for ransoms rather than fervent religious fanatics. At present the Philippine army and police are trying to track and hunt them down but they keep getting away. Theory is the Abu Sayyaf are bribing top military officials so .........

 

[Simon Darkshade]

One also lives quite near the area. Indonesia are our closest neighbours, and it almost got fiery in 1999 when we went into East Timor at last to stop what the evil Indo govt and army was doing thru its militias. It is a troublesome neighbour, and seems to be falling apart at the seams. They find it difficult to fulfill any of their international obligations towards the region in terms of preventing people smuggling (oops, I forgot, thats only a problem for us )
It is a state in turmoil, and the individual groups do not present anything of a problem as fractured entities, but if they were to get some power, it could be worrying.

Why?

Where are the Muslim fundamentalists going to strike with their jihad? Against American interests in Singapore? Across the Pacific to California?
NO. They will hop across the Arafura Sea and the Timor Gap and try and wipe out the evil infidel imperialists in Australia, the major US ally in the region, the self labelled "deputy sheriff". My place. My people.

It is interesting, living next to the worlds largest Muslim country, and seeing increasingly violent riots and rallies, as wellas knowing that their military does somewhat sympathize with them, and dislike Australia for what it did in Timor.
If they want to do it, bring it on. We'd wipe em out. Each man, woman and child (including babies) have to shoot about 12 or 13 Indonesians.
We are all on the frontline of this war, but in some respects, some of us are closer than others to the potential of direct action.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

"One also lives quite near the area. Indonesia are our closest neighbours, and it almost got fiery in 1999 when we went into East Timor at last to stop what the evil Indo govt and army was doing thru its militias. It is a troublesome neighbour, and seems to be falling apart at the seams. They find it difficult to fulfill any of their international obligations towards the region in terms of preventing people smuggling (oops, I forgot, thats only a problem for us )"

Australia is not the only country in the world having problems with these people smuggling. In my home country, Malaysia, there are millions of illegals living and working cos the economic opportunities here are vastly abundant compared with in surrounding countries. And unlike S'pore, M'sia is much bigger and it's difficult to guard the entire coastline. Even if you turn boatloads back, they can sneak in the next time and the next. The Malacca Straits is too easy to cross.
Plus these ppl are necessary as workers in the plantations, construction and other low-income jobs cos present-day M'sians do not go for these kinds of jobs. So they have become sort of a necessity. I have read estimates that there are more illegal Filipinos living in Sabah (a state in East M'sia) than M'sians. Imagine that.

 

[joespaniel]

Simon- You give guns to babies in Australia!?! Thats horrible!!!

 

[Knight-Dragon]

It's the fervent hope of all South-east Asians that Indonesia will remain stable. Otherwise, if the country falls apart (like Afghanistan), you can expect millions of refugees to flee to neighbouring countries. Most will come to M'sia cos we share a long land border with Indonesian Kalimantan in Borneo and also the Malaccan Straits which is easily crossable.
Indonesia has over 200 million people I think. It'll be a nightmare.

 

[Dell19]

Originally posted by allan
"interesting times"

Is that a quote from a discworld book with the same name?

 

[allan]

There was some curse (forget who it was made by) that said: "May you live in interesting times."

joespaniel: "The majority population in Pakistan is not with al-Queda nor the US. I doubt a revolution would succeed there."

I'm not talking about a revolution necessarily, but about how secure those nukes are: could a few sympathetic infiltrators in the military get their hands on one of them?

As for Milwaukee getting some fallout--even a suitcase nuke with a Hiroshima-like yield?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

"The majority population in Pakistan is not with al-Queda nor the US. I doubt a revolution would succeed there."

The majority of the Iranians were not with the Iranian mullahs either during the overthrow of the Shah but after students started the revolution and others joined in, the Islamic radicals hijacked the revolution and seized power. All you need is some organisation, not public support, in a power vacuum.

Ditto for the Bolsheviks.

 

[joespaniel]

A good point. I think several other conditions, like the disparity in Iran and even more so in Russia (plus a world war) contributed to the revolutions. I don't know for sure whats really going on in Pakistan, but I doubt the regime in power will allow things to get to that point.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I think the risk is in the Taliban-supporting faction of the military and intelligence service rebelling and overthrowing Musharraf's administration. The Pakistani military has a long history of interfering in the country's politics and govt and so unless it's divided, would not likely to fall to outside forces.
However he had already begun purging his regime of Taliban sympathizers and cracking down on demonstrations, so things may yet stabilize in the world's benefit. Furthermore, he knows any chaos in Pakistan can only work in its archenemy, India's, favour. The majority of Pakistanis know that too.

 

[joespaniel]

There was a firefight between Pakistani and Indian troops at the border near Kashmir today. 32 are reported wounded.

Not just because of the Afghanistan war, but because of terrorists from Pakistan attacking targets in India, and mounting pressure in India to do something about it. Kashmir was already a powder keg, now its worse because of the anti US ferver.

If these two countries have a war, things will get pretty ugly pretty quick.