[RD] Hamas/Israeli War News One: Hostages and Invasion

[H4run]

Joe Biden is a politician without principles.

A lot of the Israeli supporters in this thread are self-proclaimed centrists. Which just means they're right-wingers who want to avoid the stigma.

To be fair, regardless of whether a Democrat or Republican is elected, I wonder if any American President can truly afford to stop supporting Israel, perhaps Biden simply became president at an inconvenient time. While this doesn't excuse Biden or the actions of uncritical Democrat supporters, it suggests that neither major political party fully represents the ideologies of their voters. Ultimately, they must also appease donors and other influences that only they are fully aware of, the problem is systemic and at its very root.

 

[Henri Christophe]

genocidal state of Israel.

We should to have a pool on it, I would like to know who think Israel is making a genocide with Apartheid and who think is not.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

I'm wondering if Trump should be a puppy of Israel as Biden is.

Doesn't matter who the president is, the US has beholden itself to support Israel at all costs

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

some sort of compromise that would allow them to live side by side...

The first step is to dismantle apartheid

 

[Paul in Saudi]

That point being roughly April 1948.

My brother said that to me the other day. You both may be right. I am thinking about it. Certainly the Israeli government has shown itself to be an unfit vessel for Jewish culture.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Doesn't matter who the president is, the US has beholden itself to support Israel at all costs

That's a problem! Not just US, but also Canada, UK, France, Germany... The EU.

 

[Henri Christophe]

The first step is to dismantle apartheid

They should united all Israel and Palestine over the Palestian Authorit rule;
when the Apartheid over in South Africa, the Blacks took the power over the whites and it was fine.
The same should happens in the Holy Land, the Palestines should take the power over the jews and the international community, even US, should support.

 

[gay_Aleks]

To be fair, regardless of whether a Democrat or Republican is elected, I wonder if any American President can truly afford to stop supporting Israel, perhaps Biden simply became president at an inconvenient time. While this doesn't excuse Biden or the actions of uncritical Democrat supporters, it suggests that neither major political party fully represents the ideologies of their voters. Ultimately, they must also appease donors and other influences that only they are fully aware of, the problem is systemic and at its very root.

Going to say it: Yes, it totally can. The United States has dropped at a hat regimes that it does not consider beneficial to its policy. Apartheid South Africa, Rhodesia, even Iraq or Iran; perhaps the most important is Taiwan, which used to have a lobby as sizeable as Israel did, urging the reconquest of China; however, now Taiwan is merely an outpost of U.S imperialism and nothing more - should PRC invade it, the odds look very bad as to whether the U.S would throw its lot.

And perhaps the careers of Donald Trump or Joe Biden or a certain amount of Democrats will go ablaze - but empires thrive on more than the great personalities, and when one becomes too great of an inconvenience, they'll be discarded. The last century does not portend very well for states that hold onto the U.S until death.

 

[H4run]

Doesn't matter who the president is, the US has beholden itself to support Israel at all costs

In regards to foreign policy, the US remains largely consistent regardless of whether Democrats or Republicans are in power. Whether it's Bush or Obama, the US in itself is a(n old) political machine that operates beyond the control of its presidency or the two political parties.

That's a problem! Not just US, but also Canada, UK, France, Germany... The EU.

I really think the EU is just mostly tailing and getting dragged around by US wild west policy. It's certainly much more politically dynamic for changes. The more it suffers losses, the more it's potentially isolating the US, which will end its supremacy, God willing.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

the Blacks took the power over the whites

Palestines should take the power over the jews

Dismantling apartheid is not about one group taking power over the other, that's just reverse apartheid. But you are right in to say Palestine should be a single state, with no group having their rights violated as in post-apartheid South Africa.

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

Works the other way too. So many self-proclaimed liberals here would like to see the most liberal country in ME destroyed in favour of religious dictatorship that would murder them, if given the chance, and support actions leading to more genocide in the future rather than trying to encourage some sort of compromise that would allow them to live side by side...

Consider, Hamas is more of a convenient placeholder for some people's personal politics vis-a-vis Israel. No doubt their charter gives off a lot of fluff about togetherness, but the undercurrent is pretty clear: supremacy of Islam

Doctrine of Hamas

www.wilsoncenter.org

 

[Henri Christophe]

Dismantling apartheid is not about one group taking power over the other, that's just reverse apartheid. But you are right in to say Palestine should be a single state, with no group having their rights violated as in post-apartheid South Africa.

The First minister should be a Palestinian one of an united country of Gaza, Israel and Cisjordania.
Or at least the people of Gaza and Cisjordania can participate in the elections of Israel.

 

[Zardnaar]

The First minister should be a Palestinian one of an united country of Gaza, Israel and Cisjordania.
Or at least the people of Gaza and Cisjordania can participate in the elections of Israel.

Which is completely not going to happen.

No one here has any realustic solutions just spouting propaganda that has actually lead here in the first place.

That's not a solution it's the same path that's got us here. It's a bad faith effort to paint Israel in the worst light possible.

Even if Netanyahu and Co go you're not going to find any Israeli government tgat will agree to any form of one state.

That's not a solution it's natiobal suicide. With the fate of Jews in surrounding nations that's not exactly an unreasonable fear either.

Whole two sides have diametrically opposed views and are willing to fight it out you won't have peace. At best both sides exhaust themselves leading to a frozen conflict or one side wins.

So it's mostly just posturing, strawmanning, gaslighting, repeating propaganda and being very selective on the causes one espouses and pretends to care about.

Not even converting anyone it's just the same 3 people or so going through the motions.

 

[H4run]

Whole two sides have diametrically opposed views and are willing to fight it out you won't have peace. At best both sides exhaust themselves leading to a frozen conflict or one side wins.

And which side between these two you are hoping to come out as the victor under this little scenario of yours? I'm just curious.

 

[Gorbles]

That's not a solution it's natiobal suicide. With the fate of Jews in surrounding nations that's not exactly an unreasonable fear either.

Sure it is. At this point Israelis are more at risk from their government's escalatory policies, to say nothing of the IDF's ability to fire on innocent Israeli citizens.

 

[Lexicus]

It's worth pointing out that while accurate when applied to Israel, "apartheid" suggests a false equivalence in the sense that Israel's crimes are far worse than anything the National Party ever did in South Africa.

By way of comparison, the Sharpsburg Massacre, an event which shocked the conscience of the world, killed 69 and wounded about 180; by comparison, the least deadly of Israel's punitive rampages in Gaza, 2008-9's Operation Cast Lead, killed nearly 1,500 Palestinians.

Works the other way too. So many self-proclaimed liberals here would like to see the most liberal country in ME destroyed in favour of religious dictatorship that would murder them, if given the chance, and support actions leading to more genocide in the future rather than trying to encourage some sort of compromise that would allow them to live side by side...

The insane criminals and terrorists currently in charge of Israel are not liberal by any stretch of the imagination, but even if we accept the premise that Israel is a liberal state (I guess it technically still has elections and stuff) this amounts to a devastating indictment of liberalism rather than a reason to support Israel against its "illiberal" opponents. Indeed, liberals often appear to take the position that illiberal regimes are bad because they do things like suppressing freedom of speech or annihilating tens of thousands of people, but when liberal states do these exact same things there always seems to be some excuse or justification.

As far as I'm concerned saying we should support Israel in spite of its hideous, unspeakable crimes because it is "the most liberal state in the region" is just very thinly-veiled white supremacy and Edwardian-era imperialist ideology. Again, Israel being "the most liberal state in the region" is not a reason to support Israel's crimes, it is a devastating moral indictment of liberalism.

 

[Zardnaar]

And which side between these two you are hoping to come out as the victor under this little scenario of yours? I'm just curious.

Depends what you mean by victorious.

My preferred solution is along the lines of immediate ceasefire, somevariation of the two state solution. Hamas and similar ilk removed from government positions.

Aid flows into Pslestine including from Israel eg utilities. Restrictions on external borders removed along with trade (I don't expect Israel to remove border restrictions on Palestine/Israel proper).

Wait a few decades if things can be normal eh no rocket attacks, Israel being somewhat useful maybe some form of reintegration or confederation.

Probably about the best somewhat viable long term solution that's somewhat viable if ideal. Short term no more shooting.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's worth pointing out that while accurate when applied to Israel, "apartheid" suggests a false equivalence in the sense that Israel's crimes are far worse than anything the National Party ever did in South Africa.

By way of comparison, the Sharpsburg Massacre, an event which shocked the conscience of the world, killed 69 and wounded about 180; by comparison, the least deadly of Israel's punitive rampages in Gaza, 2008-9's Operation Cast Lead, killed nearly 1,500 Palestinians.



The insane criminals and terrorists currently in charge of Israel are not liberal by any stretch of the imagination, but even if we accept the premise that Israel is a liberal state (I guess it technically still has elections and stuff) this amounts to a devastating indictment of liberalism rather than a reason to support Israel against its "illiberal" opponents. Indeed, liberals often appear to take the position that illiberal regimes are bad because they do things like suppressing freedom of speech or annihilating tens of thousands of people, but when liberal states do these exact same things there always seems to be some excuse or justification.

As far as I'm concerned saying we should support Israel in spite of its hideous, unspeakable crimes because it is "the most liberal state in the region" is just very thinly-veiled white supremacy and Edwardian-era imperialist ideology. Israel being "the most liberal state in the region" is not a reason to support Israel's crimes, it is a devastating moral indictment of liberalism.

SA also had a leader that didn't want to genocide the whites and one they could deal with and transition power to.

Hamas isn’t Mandela or even close. They don't have a Mandela or Ghandi.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Hamas isn’t Mandela ir even close. They don't have a Mandela or Ghandi.

They have the Palestian Autorit or Fatah of Cisjordânia.

 

[GenMarshall]

My preferred solution is along the lines of immediate ceasefire, some carnation if tge two state solution. Hanas and similar ilk removed from government positions.

It's a lofty idea, but I hardly see it a reality to have a two state solution when both Palestine and Israel are at each other's throats when Palestine constantly keeps on poking the bear.