[RD] Hamas/Israeli War News One: Hostages and Invasion

[REDY]

Oh, no one is saying how great killing Jews is. Perhaps it's the right-wing sources you steadily consume. It's Zionism they oppose, not Jews specifically. In fact, there are many celebrated Jewish Muslims.

And martyrdom, or dying for the right cause, is great; no one can change that. Your own culture likely has celebrated martyrs, or if you are Christian, the same exists within your set of beliefs. So why are you now dictating what these oppressed people should believe, especially regarding martyrdom, when they face constant death? You can't even endure 1/100 of what they currently endure, you are not suppose to dictate them about anything.

I definately consume right-wing sources. Filmed by Palestinians. Like random children poking naked raped bodies on the car.
I am not dictating. But you know, christian or ghandi martyrdom is very different.

The other points.
Dont you find as problem that Abbas was elected like 20 years ago?
That two or one state solution is hard to imagine because there are two states in Palestine itself?
And poor palestines are just used as tools by its leadership and other Arabs?

 

[Lexicus]

Dont you find problem that Abbas was elected like 20 years ago?

Yeah, and Zionists harping about this always neglect to explain that Palestinians have no loyalty to the Palestinian Authority because its "acceptance of Israel's right to exist" has basically turned it into a poorly-funded branch of the occupation administration. The average Palestinian's experience of the PA is either getting shaken down by the PA or the PA assisting Israeli security forces in repressing Palestinians (or both at the same time). The PA is completely integrated into the occupation apparatus, it is delusional to think it is an independent actor with which Israel can have a bilateral relationship, and even more delusional to suppose it can speak for the Palestinian people in any meaningful way.

 

[H4run]

I think my favorite one of these was when the IDF had one of their propaganda flacks standing in a ruined house going "we found this copy of Mein Kampf in a children's living room!"

Just absurd nonsense and lies. But most of the Israeli propaganda in this war doesn't seem designed to convince anyone of anything, it rather seems designed so that people who are already fully pro-Israel have links to post.

In colonial settings, it's often a collaboration between the colonizers and the 'house negroes' (borrowing Malcolm X concept) that justifies the violence inflicted upon local populations and their resistance. They attempt to suppress or distort the inspiration that feed the resistance movements, or failing that, seek to control the narrative.

In Indonesia, for example, there were decades of Jihad against colonial powers, with resistance in Java spanning over 300 years. Lines of martyrs fell until Indonesia achieved independence on August 17, 1945 (de facto, not de jure). Throughout this lengthy period of oppression, the Dutch attempted to control and reinterpret Islam, particularly regarding Jihad. They appointed an Arab scholar as Mufti of Batavia who actively issued verdicts declaring Jihad against the colonial Dutch as forbidden (haram), not much difference than today actually.


However, Jihad itself is not the problem; the occupation is. Jihad and martyrdom pose a challenge because they become sources of inspiration for resistance.

I definately consume right-wing sources. Filmed by Palestinians. Like random children poking naked raped bodies on the car.
I am not dictating. But you know, christian or ghandi martyrdom is very different.

The other points.
Dont you find problem that Abbas was elected like 20 years ago?
That two or one state solution is hard to imagine because there are two states in Palestine itself and normal palestines are just used as tools by its leadership and other Arabs?

You are making it impossible for me to respond. Your gore reference, which came out of nowhere, lacks a source or context. It sounds like goosebumps stories, like those fake [stories of] beheaded Israeli babies (if my assumption is correct, because it's really not clear what you're trying to say). Simply mentioning that the source is from Palestinian, big-bearded Muslims, or a cute girl doesn't automatically negate the right-wing nature of its output. There are many Arabs, Muslims, or Africans who seek fortunes by taking the stage as self-orientalists, aligning with oppression. This appeals to people who enjoy having their prejudgments validated, along with their sense of superiority and righteousness.


The rest of your question is equally unclear.

 

[gay_Aleks]

The funniest thing that the zionist regime was that it in itself started shaking down the PA so intensely that it lost even the barest shred of legitimacy. In the eyes of Palestinians nowadays there's no difference between Israel and the PA.

 

[Lexicus]

In colonial settings, it's often a collaboration between the colonizers and the 'house negroes' (borrowing Malcolm X concept) that justifies the violence inflicted upon local populations and their resistance. They attempt to suppress or distort the inspiration that feed the resistance movements, or failing that, seek to control the narrative.

In Indonesia, for example, there were decades of Jihad against colonial powers, with resistance in Java spanning over 300 years. Lines of martyrs fell until Indonesia achieved independence on August 17, 1945 (de facto, not de jure). Throughout this lengthy period of oppression, the Dutch attempted to control and reinterpret Islam, particularly regarding Jihad. They appointed an Arab scholar as Mufti of Batavia who actively issued verdicts declaring Jihad against the colonial Dutch as forbidden (haram), not much difference than today actually.


However, Jihad itself is not the problem; the occupation is. Jihad and martyrdom pose a challenge because they become sources of inspiration for resistance.

This is very interesting, I did not know this about Indonesia. In the context of Israel-Palestine I've been seeing the occasional piece or Tweet from what I think of as "pet" Palestinians (collaborators, traitors - most are living overseas, but you will occasionally see Arab citizens of Israel taking these positions as well) who cheerlead the war and typically focus on Hamas' repression of Palestinians to the exclusion of all other considerations. A good example is Bassem Eid, whose Twitter feed is full of:


A quick glance at his bio shows he lives on the Israeli side of the "separation fence" which no doubt accounts for his belief that Israel is "upholding international humanitarian law"

 

[H4run]

This is very interesting, I did not know this about Indonesia. In the context of Israel-Palestine I've been seeing the occasional piece or Tweet from what I think of as "pet" Palestinians (collaborators, traitors - most are living overseas, but you will occasionally see Arab citizens of Israel taking these positions as well) who cheerlead the war and typically focus on Hamas' repression of Palestinians to the exclusion of all other considerations. A good example is Bassem Eid, whose Twitter feed is full of:
View attachment 685036

A quick glance at his bio shows he lives on the Israeli side of the "separation fence" which no doubt accounts for his belief that Israel is "upholding international humanitarian law"

Bro, we're already being fed this kind of stuff too repetitively. Some patriotic Western lads and ladies really like to deliver those to us like some kind of a gold nugget and or a holy grail of truth: 'Oh look! This is coming from your own people! He's a Muslim, not only a Muslim, an Arab Muslim!' Or in other circumstances, it will be 'Ex-Muslims'.

People like these are just surfing the tide of algorithms for fortune, of course. It's like how some people love misogynistic rhetoric from a woman, or Islamophobic rhetoric from Muslims, it just snorts their tissues minds.

 

[Zardnaar]

Bro, we're already being fed this kind of stuff too repetitively. Some patriotic Western lads and ladies really like to deliver those to us like some kind of a gold nugget and or a holy grail of truth: 'Oh look! This is coming from your own people! He's a Muslim, not only a Muslim, an Arab Muslim!' Or in other circumstances, it will be 'Ex-Muslims'.

People like these are just surfing the tide of algorithms for fortune, of course. It's like how some people love misogynistic rhetoric from a woman, or Islamophobic rhetoric from Muslims, it just snorts their tissues minds.

Palestinian over here is because of an internal matter. Basically he was told to leave or else.

My "Zardism" plan would basically sideline the extremists on both sides. Any peace plan is going to have to involve compromise pleasing no one.

Advocating for one side or the others total demands is basically where we are now. And has been ongoing since 1948.

So one woukd have to strongarm Netanyahu along with Hamas and similar groups. Peace referendum being clear what's at stake.

If one or both sides reject it (paying the consequences if they do) . That for Palestinians means more war, for Israel diplomatic and economic isolation.

Short term end fighting similar to Balkans. Disappoints everyone or at least the hard liners Oh well.

Medium term try and make things better, long term (think generational 70 odd years) sone form if one state solution might be viable. Or something like EU.

Otherwise keep banging head on stone wall.

 

[Gorbles]

My "Zardism" plan would basically sideline the extremists on both sides.

The magical word here is "how". You keep banging on about how nobody else is being realistic, everyone is stuck in ideology mode, but all you're doing is basically saying "if I had a magic wand I'd make the problems go away".

Sure. We all would. But the realistic scenarios you're demanding of others is nowhere to be found in your own idea. How on earth are you going to strongarm Netanyahu without invoking the dreaded "sanctions" a bunch of us have already suggested?

 

[Zardnaar]

The magical word here is "how". You keep banging on about how nobody else is being realistic, everyone is stuck in ideology mode, but all you're doing is basically saying "if I had a magic wand I'd make the problems go away".

Sure. We all would. But the realistic scenarios you're demanding of others is nowhere to be found in your own idea. How on earth are you going to strongarm Netanyahu without invoking the dreaded "sanctions" a bunch of us have already suggested?

Its not viable atm. I don't think any plan is tbh.

It's a more ideal circumstances and if USA is actively involved.

Big problem us everyone after about 93 got distracted with other matters and peace died around 1995-2000.

Fixing USA would be step 1. That requires routing the GoP for 20 odd years a'la FDR. Then drag the Drmocrats left. This likely requires generational change.

Feeds back into what I've been saying for a while. The online culture war is mostly a distraction. You're not going to win just get covered in poo. Best way of winning the game is to not play.

Hopefully Trump and Co and the Conservatives manage to defeat themselves vs exporting it around the world.

Throw in various actors trying to stir the pot eg Russia, Iran, probably China.

Not going to be easy, may not even be possible.

Social media effect is get lots of young men angry. It's 1920s 2.0.

 

[REDY]

Realisticly, there is no solution without liberating kidnapped.

 

[H4run]

My "Zardism" plan would basically sideline the extremists on both sides. Any peace plan is going to have to involve compromise pleasing no one.

It's a mistake to agree with your unfair portrayal of both sides as extremists. The fact that both sides use violence doesn't automatically make them equally extremist. Peace under Israel means systematic hunger, prison like border control, and periodic, at least annual, 'plow the land' operations – essentially bombardments of Gaza.

If I had to choose during those 'peace' times between living in Gaza or the West Bank, I would choose Gaza. This isn't romanticizing resistance, but rather acknowledging that enduring hunger and bombardments is preferable to living in a police state environment where the state apparatus and settlers directly and constantly oppress my existence. These are not fantasies; there are testimonies, even from within Israeli ranks on how they maintain "order" by constant random house raids that's done systematically to inflict terror.

There is the oppressor and the oppressed. The oppressor employs violence to violate the oppressed, while the oppressed resist. These two positions are not equally bad or extreme. Failing to acknowledge this perpetuates a 'whataboutism' loop that confuse good peoples into status quo. In light of the harm Israel has inflicted, the best you can do right now is to claim both sides are bad – that simply isn't the truth.

 

[Gorbles]

Its not viable atm. I don't think any plan is tbh.

So why demand "realistic" scenarios from anybody else? Nevermind the fact we've given some, that you've simply decided aren't realistic.

Realisticly, there is no solution without liberating kidnapped.

You mean these kidnapped people? Good luck blaming Hamas there.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's a mistake to agree with your unfair portrayal of both sides as extremists. The fact that both sides use violence doesn't automatically make them equally extremist. Peace under Israel means systematic hunger, prison like border control, and periodic, at least annual, 'plow the land' operations – essentially bombardments of Gaza.

If I had to choose during those 'peace' times between living in Gaza or the West Bank, I would choose Gaza. This isn't romanticizing resistance, but rather acknowledging that enduring hunger and bombardments is preferable to living in a police state environment where the state apparatus and settlers directly and constantly oppress my existence. These are not fantasies; there are testimonies, even from within Israeli ranks on how they maintain "order" by constant random house raids that's done systematically to inflict terror.

There is the oppressor and the oppressed. The oppressor employs violence to violate the oppressed, while the oppressed resist. These two positions are not equally bad or extreme. Failing to acknowledge this perpetuates a 'whataboutism' loop that confuse good peoples into status quo. In light of the harm Israel has inflicted, the best you can do right now is to claim both sides are bad – that simply isn't the truth.

Both sides have their my way or tge high way extremists. Those views nay even be the majority.

Greater Israel and Palest8ne are mutually exclusive ambitions. The compromise is neither of thise ideas gets implemented eg some sort of two state solution for the foreseeable future.

 

[Zardnaar]

So why demand "realistic" scenarios from anybody else? Nevermind the fact we've given some, that you've simply decided aren't realistic.


You mean these kidnapped people? Good luck blaming Hamas there.

No your realistic solutions boil down to pick a side. Mine involves fompromise likely disappointing everyone.

Both solutions are bad ones less terrible than the other imho.

And I doubt anyone has a time machine in theor pocket.

Hitlers final gift to the world to choke on it.

 

[Kyriakos]

The movement to repopulate Palestine with jewish peoples obviously predates Hitler.

 

[REDY]

You mean these kidnapped people? Good luck blaming Hamas there.

You do not blame kidnappers?
Its a horrible tragedy but "Good luck..." is a evil sneer.

 

[Zardnaar]

The movement to repopulate Palestine with jewish peoples obviously predates Hitler.

True but most likely they would have just been immigrants tough luck.

Road to hell paved with good intentions. Holocaust was a big catalyst for Israel's creation imho.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Dont you find as problem that Abbas was elected like 20 years ago?

And do you even know why that's the case?

That two or one state solution is hard to imagine because there are two states in Palestine itself?

And do you even know why that's the case too? (Hint: same answer as to previous question)

And poor palestines are just used as tools by its leadership and other Arabs?

And?

Its a horrible tragedy

'Tragedy' my left foot, like it was some highway accident. The IDF troops shot two of them dead while the hostages approached them unarmed and with a white flag, and when the third fled into a building, ran after him and executed him. The only reason this became big news was that the victims were Israeli: this is just everyday life for the Palestinians, but they don't make the news, and then the IDF just lies and says they were terrorists

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

MENA

Hamas abandons demand for permanent Gaza ceasefire, say sources​

Group open to temporary pause in fighting as leaders discuss proposals in Cairo​

Hamza Hendawi

Live updates: Follow the latest news on Israel-Gaza
Hamas has abandoned its demand for a permanent ceasefire in Gaza, instead accepting a temporary pause in fighting to allow for a prisoner and hostage swap with Israel and the entry of aid into Gaza, sources told The National on Tuesday.
The group wants international guarantees that the truce would be followed by negotiations to reach a permanent ceasefire, they said.
The Palestinian militant group previously insisted on a permanent ceasefire to accept a deal that includes the release of hostages, and wanted guarantees that a truce would be followed by a permanent ceasefire.


The modified Hamas position also covers a hostage and prisoner swap with Israel that mostly mirrors previous demands but differs in that the group this time wants the process hinged on the progress made in the ceasefire negotiations, said the sources.
The group continues to insist on a full but staged Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and the return home, also phased, of Palestinians who left their homes in northern Gaza and sought refuge in the south, explained the sources.
There was no immediate word available from Hamas on its new position, but the militant group's leader Ismail Haniyeh and senior official Khalil Al Hayah arrived in Cairo on Tuesday to discuss its modified demands with Egyptian, Qatari and, indirectly, US mediators.
Mr Al Hayah is the deputy of Yahya Sinwar, Hamas's leader in Gaza and Israel's most wanted man.
The new Hamas proposals, say the sources, are giving rise to hope that the fighting may soon be halted.

"This war needs to end and Hamas knew that it needed to soften its conditions," said one of the sources. "I believe we stand a very good chance of reaching a deal this time round."
READ MORE
US draft resolution at UN calls for 'temporary ceasefire' in Gaza
Hamas's modified negotiating position appears to be the outcome of a fresh push by the mediators to arrive at new proposals to end the fighting in Gaza at a time when Israel is threatening to take its ground offensive to Gaza's southernmost city Rafah, where more than one million Palestinians have found refuge.
US Middle East envoy Brett McGurk will travel to the region this week for talks that a senior official from President Joe Biden's administration said would focus on securing the release of hostages held by Hamas.
Mr McGurk, who participated in earlier talks, will visit Egypt on Wednesday and Israel on Thursday.
The new Hamas position, said the sources, is also in response to the provisions of a draft resolution being circulated by the US at the UN Security Council. The American draft is an alternate to a document prepared by Algeria that calls for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.
The US vetoed the resolution proposed by Algeria on Tuesday, after the 15-member Security Council voted 13-1 in favour of the resolution, with the UK abstaining.
US Deputy Ambassador to the UN Robert Wood said on Monday the passage of the Algerian resolution would endanger continuing delicate diplomatic negotiations which could see the release of hostages from Gaza.
The US draft resolution, seen by The National, underscores Washington's “support for a temporary ceasefire in Gaza as soon as practical, based on the formula of all hostages being released” and calls for lifting all barriers on the provision of humanitarian assistance at scale.
It adds that a major ground offensive in Rafah would not only harm civilians but also displace them into neighbouring countries, and says that “a major ground offensive should not proceed under current circumstances”.
The document does not name Israel, but in a clear reference, it “condemns calls by government ministers for the resettlement of Gaza and rejects any attempt at demographic or territorial change in Gaza that would violate international law”.
It was not immediately clear when the US plans to put its draft resolution to a vote in the Security Council.
Hamas had previously insisted on a permanent ceasefire, rejecting offers of a temporary humanitarian pause.
The sources say the group remains committed to its demand for a staged Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, where a devastating military campaign has killed more than 29,000 Palestinians since October, displaced more than 80 per cent of the enclave's 2.3 million residents and laid to waste large swathes of built-up areas.
The Israeli onslaught is in response to an attack by Hamas on Israel on October 7 that saw the militants kill some 1,200 people and take 240 hostages back to Gaza. A week-long truce in late November allowed Hamas to release about 100 of the hostages in exchange for more than 200 Palestinians jailed in Israel.
Explaining the new Hamas position, the sources said the group wanted guarantees from the US, Egypt, Qatar, Russia, China and Turkey that negotiations on a permanent ceasefire commence when the pause goes into force.
For its part, said the sources, Hamas would make the staged release of hostages dependent on the progress of those negotiations, with the intention of keeping male military personnel in its custody until an agreement is reached on a permanent ceasefire and a complete Israeli withdrawal is carried out.

 

[Kyriakos]

I agree that there is no moral equivalence. Palestinians have real reasons to hate the people/state who literally oppress them. It's not the same to fear for your life because x people were killed by palestinians, to have all your family killed along with tens of thousands more and be displaced by israelis in an area not even allowed to be a country; one side rather glaringly brings orders of magnitude more death and devastation.