Happy V Day!

[red_elk]

I'd probably call it even between the USSR and USA if we count material contribution. "Russian feet in American boots" is a good way to sum it up

Lend-lease added about 4% to the Soviet production. Which is quite a lot to be honest, and probably can be called "even" by American standards.

 

[Domen]

Happy Victory day, but perhaps not for everyone (?):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Miliband#Early_years_in_Britain:_1940.E2.80.931959

"The Englishman is a rabid nationalist. They are perhaps the most nationalist people in the world ... When you hear the English talk of this war you sometimes almost want them to lose it to show them how things are. They have the greatest contempt for the continent in general and for the French in particular. They didn't like the French before the defeat ... Since the defeat, they have the greatest contempt for the French Army ... England first. This slogan is taken for granted by the English people as a whole. To lose their empire would be the worst possible humiliation.[5]"

- Ralph Miliband (father of Edward Samuel Miliband)

 

[Tigranes]

No, but you can't ask Poland to celebrate losing a third of their territory to the guys who helped Nazi germany invade them in the first place,

Poland (1945) 312,679 km²

Poland (1921) 387,000 km²

Net loss, yes, but but not the third at the end. And you cannot compare Silesia with Western Podolia. If you think about relative quality of the things lost and gained both times thanks to USSR -- it is a net gain for Poland thanks to USSR.

Munich gave Hitler as much boldness as secret agreement with Russia. Nazis really did not need Soviet "help" with Poland.

 

[Domen]

You might want to read Piotr Eberhardt, "The Oder-Neisse Line As Poland's Western Border..." published in 2015:

http://www.geographiapolonica.pl/article/item/9928.html

Here in PDF format:

http://rcin.org.pl/igipz/Content/53298/WA51_72321_r2015-t88-no1_G-Polonica-Eberhardt.pdf

And in this thread more about Poland's borders after WW2 (originally after WW1 but later I added also info about post-1945 borders):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=536835

And you cannot compare Silesia with Western Podolia.

In what terms?

Cities in Silesia lied in ruins in May 1945. The region was more devastated than those areas lost by Poland in the east.

Lwów was still standing (at least great majority of it) in May 1945, while Breslau was mostly just a pile of rubble at that time.

 

[Borachio]

Happy Victory day, but perhaps not for everyone (?):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Miliband#Early_years_in_Britain:_1940.E2.80.931959

"The Englishman is a rabid nationalist. They are perhaps the most nationalist people in the world ... When you hear the English talk of this war you sometimes almost want them to lose it to show them how things are. They have the greatest contempt for the continent in general and for the French in particular. They didn't like the French before the defeat ... Since the defeat, they have the greatest contempt for the French Army ... England first. This slogan is taken for granted by the English people as a whole. To lose their empire would be the worst possible humiliation.[5]"

- Ralph Miliband (father of Edward Samuel Miliband)

That's a very strange quote from a teenage refugee, during wartime, I take it.

I wonder what you mean by quoting it.

 

[Phrossack]

Poland (1945) 312,679 km²

Poland (1921) 387,000 km²

Net loss, yes, but but not the third at the end. And you cannot compare Silesia with Western Podolia. If you think about relative quality of the things lost and gained both times thanks to USSR -- it is a net gain for Poland thanks to USSR.

Munich gave Hitler as much boldness as secret agreement with Russia. Nazis really did not need Soviet "help" with Poland.

The USSR invaded Poland, massacred its officers, watched across the river as Warsaw was destroyed, installed an unwanted communist government, and then annexed a huge part of the country without any justification whatsoever. Handing over large parts of ethnically cleansed lands doesn't make up for that.

 

[red_elk]

The USSR invaded Poland, massacred its officers, watched across the river as Warsaw was destroyed, installed an unwanted communist government, and then annexed a huge part of the country without any justification whatsoever.

Happy Victory Day to you too.

 

[Phrossack]

Happy Victory Day to you too.

1. VE Day is over, and what are we supposed to do, just say "Happy belated V-E Day!" for a few pages? I already commented, anyway.

2. Tigranes was saying that what the USSR did to Poland was basically okay because they gained some land. Which is a political statement, which you allegedly didn't want in this thread. You ignored it and only replied to me and Warpus. Apparently making political statements in this thread is only okay if you support the USSR in them.

 

[Domen]

The USSR invaded Poland, massacred its officers, watched across the river as Warsaw was destroyed, installed an unwanted communist government, and then annexed a huge part of the country without any justification whatsoever.

Yes. But that was still much better than what Nazi Germany planned for the Polish people, though:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=13809224#post13809224

Which was in the short-term enslavement and in the long term (ca. 20 years or so) extermination.

The Soviet plan compared to the Nazi plan was much more "generous" as it only assumed disintegration of Polish national identity and "communization" of the country. Which is - more or less - what the European Union is doing with Poland (and with all other European countries) nowadays.

The difference is that the EU is not shooting anti-EU people in the back of the head, but ostracizing them in hate speech campaigns. And the EU is a weird combination of enforcing socialism and compulsory integration of peoples (like the SU), with enforcing corporate power and banks (unlike the SU).

Also member-states of the Eastern Bloc had less sovereignity than member-states of the EU, but Brussels Berlin is already working on how to fix this.

 

[red_elk]

1. VE Day is over, and what are we supposed to do, just say "Happy belated V-E Day!" for a few pages?

We probably will. On the other hand, what makes you come to this thread and make angry comments? It looks almost like coming to a birthday party and declare that the man who celebrates is a despicable person.

2. Tigranes was saying that what the USSR did to Poland was basically okay because they gained some land. Which is a political statement, which you allegedly didn't want in this thread. You ignored it and only replied to me and Warpus. Apparently making political statements in this thread is only okay if you support the USSR in them.

The talk about Poland was started by Oda Nobunaga, not Tigranes. I'm sure you noticed that.

 

[Phrossack]

We probably will. On the other hand, what makes you come to this thread and make angry comments? It looks almost like coming to a birthday party and declare that the man who celebrates is a despicable person.

What's the point of a thread where no discussion is allowed, only patting someone on the back and trying hard to ignore what that person did to others during the event you're celebrating? You really just want people to say "Yay!" and post videos of tanks rolling around for a few pages? This isn't a birthday party. This is a celebration of the end of an extremely bloody and bitter period of history during which the victors committed atrocities--not as many as the vanquished, but murdering fewer people than a serial killer is not grounds for acquittal. We can't just pretend that people who don't feel like they can celebrate this event as much as others are all sore losers or party poopers. Warpus and Oda raised valid points and we should address them.

And I do get upset when I see someone try to excuse away massacres, invasions, and oppression, yes. If there were a thread celebrating the American Thanksgiving, and someone started talking about the Puritan treatment of the Pequots or the general treatment of Native Americans in history and today, or if someone brought up the treatment of American Loyalists in a thread on America's Independence day, I wouldn't try to shut them down out of a sense of wounded nationalist pride. They're raising valid points and starting an actual discussion.

The talk about Poland was started by Oda Nobunaga, not Tigranes. I'm sure you noticed that.

I didn't say Tigranes started it. I don't care who started it.

 

[Domen]

VE Day is over

Yet the war in Europe had not ended on 8 May, because some German units continued to resist after general capitulation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Offensive

The Prague Offensive (Russian: Пражская стратегическая наступательная операция "Prague Strategic Offensive") was the last major Soviet operation of World War II in Europe. The offensive, and the battle for Prague, was fought on the Eastern Front from 6 May to 11 May 1945. This battle for the city is particularly noteworthy in that it ended after the Third Reich capitulated on 8 May 1945. (...)

 

[red_elk]

What's the point of a thread where no discussion is allowed, only patting someone on the back and trying hard to ignore what that person did to others during the event you're celebrating?

The point of the thread is explained in the first message.

You really just want people to say "Yay!" and post videos of tanks rolling around for a few pages?

Even if I do, why is it so annoying to you? If you don't like it, you are not being forced to read this thread.

And I do get upset when I see someone try to excuse away massacres, invasions, and oppression, yes.

Then why you get upset when someone starts a thread about Victory Day, celebrating defeat of Nazism and commemorating WW2 victims?

 

[Phrossack]

The point of the thread is explained in the first message.
Even if I do, why is it so annoying to you?

If you don't like it, you are not being forced to read this thread.


Then why you get upset when someone starts a thread about Victory Day, celebrating defeat of Nazism and commemorating WW2 victims?

I'm not at all upset that someone made this thread. I already stated that what I object to. That, and attempts to stifle any real discussion of valid and relevant points.

But you're ignoring half of what I say and are just trying to get me to leave.

 

[red_elk]

I already stated that what I object to.

To the people who "excuse away massacres" and "trying to get you to leave". Which no one here does.

That, and attempts to stifle any real discussion of valid and relevant points.

Attempts to prevent derailing the thread into political quarrel.

As Warpus said, "...but it's depressing when people take this day, which should be a great celebration, and try to politicize and/or nationalize it."

 

[FriendlyFire]

The Soviet plan compared to the Nazi plan was much more "generous" as it only assumed disintegration of Polish national identity and "communization" of the country. Which is - more or less - what the European Union is doing with Poland (and with all other European countries) nowadays.

The Soviet plan for Ukraine was also far far more "generous" as well, ... genocide & enslavement

 

[Phrossack]

To the people who "excuse away massacres" and "trying to get you to leave". Which no one here does.

This is patently untrue. Tigranes is saying that, you know, Katyn and the Warsaw Uprising and the inexplicable annexation of Polish territory are okay because Poland got land and Nazi Germany was planning worse. You let that slide without comment because it favors your immutable viewpoint. If you were being sincere when you say you want to avoid making the thread political, you would have commented on that post, too.

Attempts to prevent derailing the thread into political quarrel.

By singling out posters who point out that there are some elephants in the room being ignored while carefully tiptoeing around posters who make equally political statements that favor the USSR. Interesting.

As Warpus said, "...but it's depressing when people take this day, which should be a great celebration, and try to politicize and/or nationalize it."

It is an inherently political theme that this thread is covering. When you bring up a political theme on a discussion board, discussion about politics is bound to occur. As I said and you ignored, I wouldn't get into a fit of slighted nationalist pride if threads celebrating America's holidays with political backgrounds delved into those backgrounds in ways a little deeper and more critical than self-congratulation.

 

[red_elk]

Tigranes is saying that, you know, Katyn and the Warsaw Uprising and the inexplicable annexation of Polish territory are okay

He didn't say this. You simply invented a couple of statements, got offended by them and started argument, which thread starter wanted to avoid and specifically said about it in the first post.

By singling out posters who point out that there are some elephants in the room being ignored while carefully tiptoeing around posters who make equally political statements that favor the USSR. Interesting.

As I already said, the only political statements favoring USSR here, were replies to certain posters who brought "elephants in the room". You answered that you don't care.

It is an inherently political theme that this thread is covering.

Only for those who want to make it such.

 

[Tigranes]

The USSR invaded Poland, massacred its officers, watched across the river as Warsaw was destroyed, installed an unwanted communist government, and then annexed a huge part of the country without any justification whatsoever. Handing over large parts of ethnically cleansed lands doesn't make up for that.

When did you get to Germany? Last time I checked you were from the city of violent Saint.

USSR massacred their own officers in far greater numbers. That's the main plus of Hitler compared to Stalin -- the former was mostly violent on other nations' expenses. If Nazis had it their way and did not clash with USSR -- there would be no Poland, and Jews would survive only in Russian part of Poland.

And there was absolutely no geopolitical imperative for liberators to hand anything to Poland at all. East Germany could have kept Silesia if she stay communist like she was. And after fall of communism -- good luck of getting it back from united democratic Germany, French kept Strasbourg even though West Germany stayed with West.

 

[Evie]

Lend-lease added about 4% to the Soviet production. Which is quite a lot to be honest, and probably can be called "even" by American standards.

True, in terms of overall production it's not that large a chunk. But in some strategic fields, it represented a very large proportion of your equipment - trucks (about 33% of trucks in the red army on V-day were lend-lease results, and these trucks tended to be deployed to frontline units), armored troop carriers (which I'm given to understand you didn't produce at all), jeeps, etc. These are all vital fields to winning a mobile war, and while you might have been able to produce some more of them, it would likely have meant producing less of other things (eg, reducing your tank production to build more trucks).

You might have been able to win without American help all the same. But the kind of help above is the kind that make winning wars a whole lot easier.