Happy V Day!

[Domen]

^ It has more to do with differences between Chinese / Armenian / Jewish / Palestinian / Ukrainian lobbies

I beg to differ. No lobbying can achieve anything without good will and ability to repent by the perpetrator country.

But in Germany there is no good will to repent of crimes against Non-Jewish victims of Nazi Germany.

For examle, Germany does not repent of Nazi Germany's crimes against Ukrainian people.

So in this case Germany is no different than Russia with Holodomor.

 

[red_elk]

Parade in St. Petersburg

 

[Tigranes]

My favorite is the forth one from the third row.

 

[Tigranes]

Parade in St. Petersburg

[IMGhttp://media.2oceansvibe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/russia.jpg

By the way they are all labeled 2013 May. Are you trying to entice us with an old news, comrade?

 

[FriendlyFire]

For examle, Germany does not repent of Nazi Germany's crimes against Ukrainian people.
So in this case Germany is no different than Russia with Holodomor.

Divide Ukraine into two and sign non aggression pact.

a certain feeling of "war guilt" shapes German attitudes, Umland says. "There is also this feeling that Germany is somehow indebted to Russia because of World War II," he says, "and because of the suffering that Russians have gone through in World War II. And that is then often also a factor in the assessment of the Russian-Ukrainian conflict. Although of course Ukraine was also a part of World War II and had its share in bringing down German fascism."

In an essay published in the Hamburg-based weekly "Der Zeit" last month, analyst Bernd Ulrich wrote that lingering German war guilt toward Russia, ironically, prompts Germans to downplay Ukrainian claims to self-determination. "Should [Ukrainians] not be allowed into the EU because Germans justifiably have a guilty conscience vis-a-vis Russians?" Ulrich wrote. "The fact that Germans and Russians are once again making decisions about the fate of Ukraine would be a perverse lesson to learn from history for this country, which suffered under both nations like no other."

In addition, Russia employs soft-power techniques to exploit these sympathies. The Berlin-based newspaper "Der Welt am Sonntag" and the Hamburg-based weekly "Der Spiegel" have both published recent exposes on the shadowy network of Russia supporters that has been trying to shape public discourse in Germany.

The Ruptly news agency, a branch of Russia Today, has a "posh location" overlooking the Reichstag, indicating "the Kremlin doesn't seem to mind spending quite a bit of money to disseminate its view of the world from here," "Der Spiegel" observed. Several German media outlets subscribe to Ruptly and distribute their materials.

Analyst Umland says such exposes may be having an effect. "There is a growing acknowledgement in the German public that there is this information war coming from Russia which is trying to manipulate public opinion," he says. "At least among journalists, I think, the skepticism towards Russia has grown during the last weeks."

http://www.rferl.org/content/berlin...why-germany-accommodates-russia/25409920.html

..... those photos.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel exchanged frosty glares with Russian President Vladmir Putin after flying into Moscow for the country's VE Day celebrations today.

Ms Merkel paid tribute to Soviet soldiers killed in the Second World War as she called for co-operation with Russia amid tensions over Ukraine.

She laid a wreath at the grave of the Unknown Soldier near the Kremlin walls alongside Putin in an apparent compromise gesture after skipping Russia's main festivities yesterday.

 

[Domen]

Divide Ukraine into two and sign non aggression pact.

Why divide if one can have all of Ukraine plus the Caucasus up to the Caspian Sea?:


Link to video.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Why divide if one can have all of Ukraine plus the Caucasus up to the Caspian Sea?:

Only up to Caspian Sea ?


Link to video.

 

[red_elk]

By the way they are all labeled 2013 May. Are you trying to entice us with an old news, comrade?

I merely re-posted a picture from social networks, so may be it's an old one. Sorry if it ruined all your impressions

 

[Borachio]

Link to video.

Spoiler :

Ah, roads,
there are dust and mist
Coldnesses, anxieties
And steppe wild grass
You can't know
Your destiny
Maybe you will put down your wings
Among the steppes.

The dust whirls under the boots
in steppes
in fields
And everywhere around fire rages
And bullets whine.

Ah, roads
there are dust and mist
Coldnesses, anxieties
And steppe wild grass
A shot crashes out
Raven goes round
Your dead friend is lying
In the steppe wild grass

And the road tears along
gets dusty
swirls
And around the land smokes
Foreign land

Ah, roads
there are dust and mist
Coldnesses, anxieties
And steppe wild grass
Its pine wood land
The sun rises up
Near by her own porch
Mother is waiting for the son.

And in boundless ways
In steppes
In fields
Everytime following us
Own mother's eyes

Ah, roads
there are dust and mist
Coldnesses, anxieties
And steppe wild grass
There is snow or wind
Lets remember, my friends!
We are not able
To forget these roads.

(or something like)

Spoiler :

 

[red_elk]

God forbid us to repeat this.

 

[red_elk]

Link to video.

Spoiler :

White Cranes
Translated by Boris Anisimov

Sometimes it seems to me each fallen soldier
That never came back home from fields of gore
In fact did never perish, as they told you,
But turned into a crane as white as snow

And ever since those days in their due season
We've seen them soaring high across the sky
With distant voices giving us a reason
To stand in tears and watch them flying by

A wedge of cranes is fading in the distance
So far away I can no longer see
When I run out of days of my existence
I hope those cranes will find a gap for me

That I may soar above my pain and anguish
And join their ranks as many years ago
Recalling all their names in my new language
And names of those whom I have left below

Sometimes it seems to me each fallen soldier
That never came back home from fields of gore
In fact did never perish, as they told you,
But turned into a crane as white as snow

 

[Tigranes]

I merely re-posted a picture from social networks, so may be it's an old one. Sorry if it ruined all your impressions

Of course it did! Just think about it -- all those girls are now 2 years older

 

[warpus]

And it's our common victory with the Western Allies - despite all our current disagreements, we should remember that they helped our grandfathers to defeat Nazism.

I agree with all of this, but it's depressing when people take this day, which should be a great celebration, and try to politicize and/or nationalize it. Which is not something you did that I've seen, but a lot of other people seem to..

You have to remember that a lot of people in Eastern and central Europe did not regain their freedom after WW2 was over; my country had to wait at least 50 more years for that, for example.

So while I agree with your general statement, it seems that every country that was involved in this war has their own unique take on the events... and that these views are not often compatible - and in some cases will lead to some resentment from those who had to continue to fight for their freedom for the next half century. So if we're going to all celebrate together, let's first agree on some common ground - in many cases there isn't really a lot of it.

 

[Tigranes]

my country had to wait at least 50 more years for that, for example.

I mean with all due respect you cannot compare Nazi occupation and what happened to Warsaw with Communist rule by local Polish communists, even under Moscow's patronage.
You cannot even compare it with Stalin's rule over Russia proper, for that matter. Simply we have different orders of magnitudes, both qualitatively and quantitatively. Just like in Civilization IV game -- there is a independence, there is a defensive pact and permanent ally, there is a vassalage, there is an occupation, and there is a raze the city button. Poland received aid through Molotov's plan and compensated lands lost on the East with lands on the West. Former Axis countries that joined Eastern Block were treated differently. At the same time the Soviets were giving aid to Eastern bloc countries, they were demanding that countries who were members of the Axis powers pay reparations to the USSR.

 

[warpus]

I'm not comparing, all I'm saying is that we had to wait 50 more years for freedom.

Just an explanation of how claims of "You were liberated, let's celebrate!" might not be met with equally excited cheers from some quarters. The war did not end equally awesome for all victors.

 

[red_elk]

So if we're going to all celebrate together, let's first agree on some common ground - in many cases there isn't really a lot of it.

If you didn't regain your freedom in 1945, you have nothing to celebrate together with us.
What would be the matter of celebration, if you remained slaves?

 

[warpus]

The defeat of the Nazis can be celebrated by all - my point is that if we are to do this, then we have to find common ground, because the heavily politicized celebrations that revolve around v(e)-day that some countries/people put on do not really jive very well with perceptions of the end of the war and the situation millions of people found themselves in when it was all said and done.

So let's celebrate, but let's also keep in mind that if we are to be inclusive in the celebrations, that we need to look at this event through the eyes of people other than those who live in our respective nations.

The end of the war is seen wildly differently in various places - not everyone views it as "the final defeat of those who were trying to enslave or eliminate us."

So not all of us can celebrate it as such. If you really want an inclusive celebration, then you need to keep this in mind.

 

[red_elk]

Warpus, what we (Tigranes and I) are celebrating, were explained in our first posts in this thread. Both of us avoided political statements. What you are doing now, is bringing politics into discussion (by criticizing one of Allied powers) and simultaneously condemn those who politicize this holiday.

If you really want an inclusive celebration, then you need to keep this in mind.

I want an inclusive celebration with the people who want to celebrate the Victory and respect the people who made it. Not with the ones who use this day as a pretext for arguments about how good/bad Soviet Union was.

This day is a good reason to temporarily forget about our disagreements, not to start new arguments about them.

 

[warpus]

I didn't say anything about how bad the Soviet Union was, just highlighted the realities of the "liberation" that we're supposed to be celebrating. The extent of the "badness" is for the reader to decide.

If we're all supposed to be celebrating this thing together, we need to find some common ground. Maybe in some cases it isn't possible.

I am now going to back out of the thread, so you guys can continue celebrating. I don't wish to bring more disagreements into this - now that my point has been heard, I am bowing out.

 

[Evie]

I mean with all due respect you cannot compare Nazi occupation and what happened to Warsaw with Communist rule by local Polish communists, even under Moscow's patronage.
You cannot even compare it with Stalin's rule over Russia proper, for that matter. Simply we have different orders of magnitudes, both qualitatively and quantitatively. Just like in Civilization IV game -- there is a independence, there is a defensive pact and permanent ally, there is a vassalage, there is an occupation, and there is a raze the city button. Poland received aid through Molotov's plan and compensated lands lost on the East with lands on the best. Former Axis countries that joined Eastern Block were treated differently. At the same time the Soviets were giving aid to Eastern bloc countries, they were demanding that countries who were members of the Axis powers pay reparations to the USSR.

No, but you can't ask Poland to celebrate losing a third of their territory to the guys who helped Nazi germany invade them in the first place, then setting up a puppet government in the remainder of the country. After Katyn and failing to help in the Warsaw uprising, too.

The Soviet Union contributed more than any other nation *in direct military terms* (eg, actual soldiers fighting and dying ; I'd probably call it even between the USSR and USA if we count material contribution. "Russian feet in American boots" is a good way to sum it up) to defeating Nazism, and that's all to their honor.

That doesn't mean the countries that got out of German rule and under Soviet puppet control instead were "liberated".