Health secretary: 12 weeks should be the limit for abortions

[WindFish]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19854465

The new Health secretary believes that the GOP war on women was such a good idea that he believes abortions in the UK should be limited to the 12th week.

The evidence is that most, 91%, of abortions happen before the 13th week but the rest of abortions are for women who have extremely challenging circumstances.

My own personal view is that the current limit of 24 weeks is fine enough because then the foetus has a 50/50 chance of surviving out of the womb.

 

[Borachio]

I'm not happy with the 50/50 chance of survival as a metric for the validity of an abortion. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

I think that all abortions, if they must happen, should happen as early as possible. So, early detection of any severe handicap is a necessity. Given that a teenager with a baby is going to have a hard time anyway, forcing a teenager to carry a severely handicapped baby to term does not seem civilized.

I'm personally very uneasy with a 24 week limit. On the other hand, given the current medical practices, 12 weeks is just a little bit short.

It would seem that Jeremy Hunt is just trying to get people to realize he is there, as much as anything else.

 

[Quackers]

it's just a bone to excite the abused Conservative base. there are no official plans from downing street on the matter.

 

[WindFish]

I'm not happy with the 50/50 chance of survival as a metric for the validity of an abortion. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

I know but the NHS is publicity funded and there is only so much money in the kitty. One Pound being spent trying to save a premature baby that doesn't have much chance to live and dies means that there is One Pound less for everyone else.

(Yes I am a fiscal conservative)

I think that all abortions, if they must happen, should happen as early as possible. So, early detection of any severe handicap is a necessity. Given that a teenager with a baby is going to have a hard time anyway, forcing a teenager to carry a severely handicapped baby to term does not seem civilized.

I'm personally very uneasy with a 24 week limit. On the other hand, given the current medical practices, 12 weeks is just a little bit short.

The NHS doesn't even scan for handicaps until the 18th week so making abortion the 12th week would mean that women will have to carry a severely handicapped baby to term.

I can't have children but I feel sorry for women who do because you have people like Jeremy Hunt trying to control their bodies.

It would seem that Jeremy Hunt is just trying to get people to realize he is there, as much as anything else.

No, its an attempt by the Tories to try to shore up the Tory Far-Right who believe that Coalition government is making them too left-wing.

The Tories are worried that the far-right is going to vote UKIP at the next election.

 

[Leoreth]

How important is this topic in the UK?

 

[bathsheba666]

There is always an extreme right wing caucus in the Tory party that believes that the peasants should be conditioned to obey their betters.
Arbitrary rules have always been such a source.

What was funny was his "It's not because I'm a Christian, it's the research" line.

As regards Hunt, I'm firmly in the Naughtie camp.

 

[Borachio]

I'm not actually in favour of any abortions. I think they are at best the least worst option.

Sundry facts on abortion in the UK:

Spoiler :

· One in three women in the UK have an abortion in their lifetime.

· Around 180,000 abortions a year take place in England. About 10,000 are on women from other parts of the world including Ireland, where it is illegal. 10,000 are performed in Scotland.

· Women between 20- and 24-years-old are the largest users of abortion services.

· Since being legalised under the 1967 Abortion Act, on average around one fifth of all pregnancies in the UK have ended in abortion.

· World-wide, around one quarter of pregnancies end in abortion - nearly half are illegal.

· 70,000 women world-wide die each year from back-street abortions.

· Almost 90% of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.

· Contrary to the hype, late abortions are rare. Only 1.6% of abortions in the UK happen after 20 weeks - and they need compelling reasons.

· 76% of adults in the UK are pro-choice.

· The NHS is not required by law to perform abortions.

· In England nearly a quarter of women pay for their abortions because NHS services are restricted.

· Abortion on request is the general rule in most European countries and in the US but not in the UK where the permission of two doctors is required.

Source: Abortion Rights, UK

So 180,000 abortions in the UK would cost how much? Marie Stopes charge £300- £600 for a private abortion. So, let's say it costs ~£500,000,000 to the NHS to provide abortions, annually.

How much of this could be saved by promoting, relatively cheaply:
1) birth control;
2) the morning after pill; and/or
3) advertising the fact that abortion is a very poor method of birth control?

Maybe 1/2, perhaps? So £250,000,000. What's this, the cost of a new hospital? No. Probably not.

And while we're at it, how about ditching the British attitude of let's not talk about sex in front of teenagers, because it makes us feel uncomfortable to think of our children at it?

 

[bathsheba666]

And while we're at it, how about ditching the British attitude of let's not talk about sex in front of teenagers, because it makes us feel uncomfortable to think of our children at it?

You're ignoring the aspect of let's not talk sex in front of teenagers because they immediately vomit when confronted with the notion that the dried up old fart might actually have done it at some point during the Cretaceous.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, I think the most important thing is to make sure that the UK abortion debate becomes as shrill and angry as the debate in the US. Hopefully, hopefully increasing the shrillness and the rancor of the debate will be an essential linchpin in getting the abortion rate in the UK to be 'more like' the abortion rate in the US.

 

[Borachio]

That's strange. With ~800,000 in the US the rates seem very similar.

Is that your point; that shrill debate accomplishes nothing?

Seems a bit of a thin point.

The thing about the Scandinavian and Dutch experience, where teenagers are allowed, apparently to have sex in their parents houses, as opposed to having to keep it secret as in the UK, is that their abortion rates are so much lower. Or are they not? I shall have to check it out.

Spoiler :

country year % notes
1. Greenland 2007 51.1
2. Russia 2008 44.7
3. Guadeloupe 2007 39.8
4. Nagorno-Karabakh 2007 38.1
5. Cuba 2007 37.0
6. Romania 2008 36.6
7. Estonia 2008 34.4
8. Bulgaria 2008 32.0
9. Martinique 2007 31.6
10. China (PRC) 2007 31.1
11. Hungary 2008 30.8
12. Latvia 2008 30.4
13. Moldova 2008 29.0
14. Cocos Islands 1978 28.6
15. Belarus 2008 28.2
16. Georgia 2008 28.1
17. Belize 1996 28.0
18. Kazakhstan 2008 26.8
19. Sweden 2008 25.8
20. Korea, South (ROK) 1999 25.6
21. New Caledonia 1998 25.2
22. French Guiana 2007 25.0
23. Slovakia 2008 24.3
24. Reunion 2007 23.5
25. Singapore 2008 23.4
26. Armenia 2008 23.2
27. Serbia 2008 23.2
28. Seychelles 2006 23.2
29. Vietnam 2007 23.2
30. United States 2005 22.6
31. Ukraine 2008 21.9
32. New Zealand 2008 21.6
33. France 2007 21.4
34. Norway 2008 20.9
35. United Kingdom 2008 20.9
36. Canada 2006 20.7
37. Lithuania 2008 20.5
38. Macedonia 2008 20.5
39. Australia 2007 20.2
40. Hong Kong 2005 19.9
41. Jersey 2004 19.9 *
42. Japan 2007 19.1
43. Denmark 2006 18.8
44. Albania 2008 18.7
45. Slovenia 2008 18.5
46. Dominican Republic 2005 18.2
47. Spain 2008 18.2
48. Montenegro 2007 17.7
49. Italy 2008 17.4
50. Turkey 2008 17.0
51. Croatia 2008 16.9
52. Iceland 2008 16.5
53. Mayotte 2006 16.0
54. Czech Republic 2008 15.8
55. Guernsey 2000 15.0 *
56. Finland 2008 14.9
57. Mongolia 2008 14.5
58. Germany 2008 14.4
59. Azerbaijan 2008 14.2
60. Kyrgyzstan 2008 14.0
61. Belgium 2007 13.5 *
62. Netherlands 2007 13.5
63. Greece 2005 13.3
64. Guyana 2007 13.3
65. Andorra 1995 13.0
66. Taiwan (ROC) 1999 13.0
67. Isle of Man 2007 12.8 *
68. Switzerland 2008 12.4
69. Portugal 2008 11.9
70. Bahrain 2002 11.4
71. Anguilla 2005 11.2
72. Israel 2008 11.1
73. Barbados 1995 10.3
74. Puerto Rico 2006 10.2
75. Tunisia 2008 10.1
76. Costa Rica 2005 10.0
77. Bermuda 1984 9.9
78. Turkmenistan 2008 9.9
79. Turks and Caicos Islands 2005 9.1
80. Tajikistan 2007 8.7
81. South Africa 2007 7.7
82. Saint Helena 1990 7.1
83. Ireland 2008 5.8 *
84. Uzbekistan 2008 5.8
85. Faeroe Islands 2008 5.3
86. Kosovo 2006 4.6
87. Bosnia and Herzegovina 2001 3.2
88. Austria 2000 3.0
89. Suriname 1994 3.0
90. India 2004 2.6
91. Gibraltar 2008 1.7 *
92. Qatar 2005 1.3
93. Malta 2008 0.9 *
94. Venezuela 1968 0.8
95. United Arab Emirates 2006 0.10 *
96. Mexico 2007 0.09 *
97. Poland 2007 0.09 *
98. Botswana 1984 0.04
99. Chile 1991 0.02
100. Luxembourg 1997 0.02 *
101. Panama 2000 0.02

Looks like I was wrong about Sweden but right about the Netherlands.

But, someone will point out that this is quite a complex topic.

 

[WindFish]

How important is this topic in the UK?

It isn't really that important but the Tories are in trouble because their economic plan has failed so they need to either get a new plan or distract the electorate for long enough

 

[Quackers]

The thing about the Scandinavian and Dutch experience, where teenagers are allowed, apparently to have sex in their parents houses, as opposed to having to keep it secret as in the UK, is that their abortion rates are so much lower. Or are they not? I shall have to check it out.

Keep it secret in the UK?

 

[Borachio]

Well, so they tell me. I do believe that the British are less open about these sorts of things.

Carry on up the Kyber and No Sex please, We're British, and smutty seaside postcards.

Why, is your experience radically different, then, Mr Q?

relevant video

 

[JohnRM]

How about a compromise? 16 weeks?

 

[Borachio]

I think it possible they'll reduce it from 24 to 20 weeks in the foreseeable future. But even that'll take some readjustment of medical practices.

 

[Leoreth]

It isn't really that important but the Tories are in trouble because their economic plan has failed so they need to either get a new plan or distract the electorate for long enough

But is there a large enough segment of the population that cares about this so that will work?

I mean we all know how contentious this topic is in the US, but if even a conservative party would try to gain votes by this in Germany it would have only negligible effect.

 

[Patroklos]

The first trimester has always been my limit, its good to see the pendulum slowly recedeing from the two extremes to a civilized and compassionate position.

 

[Borachio]

I don't see abortion becoming a burning issue in the UK.

They could make immigration into one, though. And the Tories might attract more far-right wingers.

 

[Quackers]

But is there a large enough segment of the population that cares about this so that will work?

I mean we all know how contentious this topic is in the US, but if even a conservative party would try to gain votes by this in Germany it would have only negligible effect.

I'm not an expert on the matter but i don't think this is a big issue at all. Negligible effect would best describe the effect this will have. Anyway there hasn't been any formal announcement that anything like this will happen in the future (yet). I subscribe to the Borachio view that this is just a "Hey, i'm here! Look at me!" to the press after the reshuffle. Anecdotal experiance tells me..everybody is pro-choice and i've lived for 21 years now

 

[LightSpectra]

war on women

I love this term. Apparently killing female children in the womb isn't a "war on women."